What is a lesbian?

Even a full reversal and a lifetime living as your chosen gender can’t change your sex. It is genetic and will affect your life, particularly in medical matters, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Just as other genetic issues will impact on other people.

Although I’m still not clear what “living as a woman” means I am very happy for people to live the way they want, whatever that is, with due consideration for others and the impact that the choices we all make have upon each other.

Glorianny

I'm just wondering how far such discrimination should extend. Speed dating for Gay men only- no transmen allowed.
Speeddating for transwomen- no ADF's, allowed
Speed dating for transmen- no male bodied at birth allowed
Speed dating for heterosexuals- no transpeople allowed
Speed dating for bisexuals- no hets, no gays, no lesbians allowed.
It could get so complicated!!!

Well I won’t bother to turn up to a speed dating for homosexuals because obviously none would fancy my female body.

So what do you think his motivation was for turning up with his male sexual organs deliberately prominent?

Come on. We all know it was to be goady and provoke.

Agreed Lathyrus. I do wish someone who uses the term would tell me what ‘living as a woman’ means, as I am a woman and I have no idea.

I know others disagree, but I think that surgically ‘transitioned’ people could use the facilities of the sex they’d like to be, as they are very unlikely to do harm.

As for the various possible permutations of dating events - they should be up to the organisers. If they are popular people will come along, however niche, but nobody should be able to insist on a ticket just because they want one, or get an event closed down when someone dares to tell them no.

Doodledog

How long did it take for lesbians (and gay men) to get to the point where they could advertise such events and hold them openly? How many women have taken half their lives (or longer) to realise that they are gay, and that events like this might help them find a partner to make them happy?

It’s horrible that they will have to go underground again because some men hate the idea that gay women don’t want sex with them, and would rather ruin their events than accept that they are not welcome.

Calling them ‘attention seeking’, ‘undignified’ and ‘disrespectful’ shows the true contempt for women that underpins TRA behaviour, and decent transpeople will, I am sure, be ashamed of what is happening in their name.

Exactly Doodledog.

I’m not disappearing from this thread on purpose. It is a subject that is very important to me. But I’m unable to contribute just now due to helping my daughter with a fund raising event. I will catch up with great interest later.

I'm quite sure this is not a "non-issue" for lesbians including my daughter!

Ms Watson told The Mail on Sunday: 'Last year, a person turned up sporting a purple latex outfit… and an erection. That just about says it all...............

Just the Daily Mail stiring up hatred again.

Jackiest

Just the Daily Mail stiring up hatred again.

Do you really think so? Don’t you think that the men who took umbrage at the idea that lesbians don’t want to have sex with them are the ones stirring things up?

Hmm, full bodied males have come to the event with prominent penises and have assaulted females in the toilets.

Following these incidents that were distressing to genuine attendees the organiser attempted to limit the attendance to females.

Transactivists reported her to the Council as transphobic and caused the venue to withdraw from the event effectively closing it down.

Who did you say was stirring up hatred?

Lathyrus

Even a full reversal and a lifetime living as your chosen gender can’t change your sex. It is genetic and will affect your life, particularly in medical matters, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Just as other genetic issues will impact on other people.

Although I’m still not clear what “living as a woman” means I am very happy for people to live the way they want, whatever that is, with due consideration for others and the impact that the choices we all make have upon each other.

Debbie Hayton - a fully transitioned trans woman writing for The Spectator (snippets chose deliberately from the article to emphasise my point - and probably yours)

While some may resent being told they have a sex, they do. It is one of two things: male or female. We cannot change it, and we can’t choose it any more than we can choose the colour of our eyes.

To my mind, the conflation of sex and gender is insidious and is causing major problems

Transsexuals never used to try to control or compel language. We transitioned and got on with it. Indeed one measure of a successful transition was the pronoun that strangers used when they met us.

When people claim that they identify as a woman, a non-binary person or even as a penguin, all they are really saying is that they call themselves a woman, a non-binary person or a penguin. To be a woman isn’t to ‘feel’ like a woman, whatever Shania Twain says. You either are one, or you aren’t.

... I think we need more Debbie Haytons, and less TRAs in the trans world...

... "fewer" not "less"... duh!

Lathyrus

Even a full reversal and a lifetime living as your chosen gender can’t change your sex. It is genetic and will affect your life, particularly in medical matters, no matter how much you wish otherwise. Just as other genetic issues will impact on other people.

Although I’m still not clear what “living as a woman” means I am very happy for people to live the way they want, whatever that is, with due consideration for others and the impact that the choices we all make have upon each other.

What right do you have to 'decree' on this? Do you know any wonderful human beings who have been through all the pain, psychological, emotional, physical, and make the full change? Perhaps if you did, you would not write what you did.

I agree' living as a woman' is difficult to describe without ending with ridiculous stereotypes. And it will mean different things to different people. For the ones I know it is having long hair, wearing a bit of discreet make-up, wearing feminine clothes and shoes, and being gentle and kind, have voice training and speak softer than they did before, etc, but mainly IDENTIFYING fully as women and wanting to be accepted as such.

Surely there is a massive difference between men who try to infiltrate lesbian events, etc, beign totally dihonest with a clear agenda to cause upset and get publicity (which the DM and co love, don't they. It sells, for sure ) and transgender women who have gone through the full change and want to date other women, as women- so in their view, as lesbians. As long as they are honest, and accept and respect refusal.

I don't get it- I have always been a woman, attracted to men- my life has been so so simple in that respect. How does that give me the right to pontificate on my friends who have truly been through so much torment and pain to become women. Why should I care that genetically and medically, they are not totally women. Why would it be any of my business? As long as they are honest, and respect other choices, including NO.

Lathyrus

Hmm, full bodied males have come to the event with prominent penises and have assaulted females in the toilets.

Following these incidents that were distressing to genuine attendees the organiser attempted to limit the attendance to females.

Transactivists reported her to the Council as transphobic and caused the venue to withdraw from the event effectively closing it down.

Who did you say was stirring up hatred?

And that is 100% wrong and despicable, dangerous too.

But surely, there is another story somewhere in the middle- for those who have fully transitionned and are truthful, honest and respect other women's choices.

What is a lesbian?
It’s not a man complete with all his male tackle.
I agree with you Doodledog.
You say it all, I couldn’t put it better.

I’m not without sympathy for them *Fleurpepper” even if I find the whole concept of “feeling like a woman” difficult to grasp.

The whole question of what you disclose on a first date or meeting is a difficult one I think, if you have something in your life that is both private and also relevant in any relationship.
Where you’re meeting specifically for dating purposes at what point would you reveal that you’re trans? Very very difficult.

But to come to a dating venue for lesbians who by definition are attracted to female bodies with a bulging penis. Nah. That’s just making trouble.

I read the comment to mean that they only want transwomen who have had surgery not that a man cannot become a woman.

vampirequeen

I read the comment to mean that they only want transwomen who have had surgery not that a man cannot become a woman.

Do you believe a man can become a woman?

FP if your wonderful friends were not wonderful but deeply unpleasant types, would it make a difference? This is not about personality- it’s about safety, and the fact that you love your friends, with respect, is neither here nor there.

A man who wants to have sex with women is not a lesbian - he is a straight man. If he meets a lesbian who fancies or falls in love with him, good luck to both of them, but it is deceitful to pretend that he is a woman at a dating event, and the man who turned up with his erection shown off in a latex outfit knew exactly what he was doing - intimidating and disrespecting gay women.

I am genuinely trying to get my head around this.

Lathyrus, ''But to come to a dating venue for lesbians who by definition are attracted to female bodies with a bulging penis. Nah. That’s just making trouble.'' of course it is- totally wrong, and I have agreed 100%.

TBH I imagine there are lesbians who are 'deeply unpleasant types' and controlling, and perhaps dangerous. Yes, like every human being can be.

And I agree totally that is is very complicated- and I don't know the answer. But I do think that a fully trans person, as long as open and honest (and everyone should be, female, male or otherwise) should be allowed to date lesbians if they so wish, as long they don't try to hide.

However, I think I agree, and thank you for the discussion here- that they should not attend events solely for lesbian women.

But sorry' a fully reversed man, is not and never will be 'a straight man' - saying so is, to may mind. totally wrong and insensitive too.

Why would a trans woman with male genitalia intact and squashed into a revealing item of clothing go to a dating event among lesbians - if not to cause trouble?

It is men, who cannot accept that there are areas of life dominated by women, that they are excluded from. And they are taking a typical misogynist's stance when they can't get what they want... goading and bullying.

And they are attempting - and succeeding - to close down debate and get the law on their side.

Women have a fight on their hands, and if we don't fight back, we will become marginalised and powerless - because, in spite of progress - this is still a man's world.

Just going back a bit *Fleurpepper” to where you asked what right I have to “decree” following my comment on not being able to change genetic sex.

I don’t believe that is possible (yet-it may be in the future) but if you can show me a case where the genetics have been changed I’m very willing to consider it.

Whether you have the male gene or don’t have ot will affect your body throughout your life regardless of surgery or hormones. It’s just a medical fact.
Just as any genetic condition will affect those who have it.

It might be a decree but it’s Natures not mine.

As far as I’m concerned a person who is born male, has a penis, and starts life as a male is and will always be male. He can have surgery to remove his penis. But he remains a male with no penis. He can have breast tissue surgery, but he remains a male with false breasts. He can take female hormones, but that doesn’t make him any more than a male taking drugs.
He can tell me that he is now a woman, but that doesn’t mean that he IS a women. He will always be for me a male who has had surgery and no idea of what it is really like being a woman and certainly not a lesbian.
He can not and never will be a lesbian. I’ve never been to a lesbian ( or any other) speed dating occasion but he would receive very short shrift from myself and many other lesbians who feel the same way.

Lathyrus

Just going back a bit *Fleurpepper” to where you asked what right I have to “decree” following my comment on not being able to change genetic sex.

I don’t believe that is possible (yet-it may be in the future) but if you can show me a case where the genetics have been changed I’m very willing to consider it.

Whether you have the male gene or don’t have ot will affect your body throughout your life regardless of surgery or hormones. It’s just a medical fact.
Just as any genetic condition will affect those who have it.

It might be a decree but it’s Natures not mine.

And I have to respect that you feel that may, and many many others.

But I disagree that it is that simple. It just is not. I have been part of their journey, and seen the pain in so so many ways. If what you say is the only way to think or believe- than it would probably have been kinder to tell them to just accept that their are make and that there is nothing they can do about it.

And just let them commit suicide, as so many did before them- because for many, that is the only alternative.