What is a lesbian?

Thank you Dickens. Very clearly explained, but since Glorianny has tried a religion deviation, I’m just pointing out that some seeds fall on stony ground.

Hotdogs are not dogs, seahorses are not horses, transwomen are not women.
If they were, they would not need to be a compound noun, nor to have a qualifying prefix.

Spot on Dickens.

Rosie51

Dickens an excellent post! Anybody who reads it and still doesn't 'get it' is, in my opinion, wilfully refusing to. We've been on a slippery slope for a long time, and if we don't stand firm now, we'll be back to medieval conditions for women where they truly were chattels. We'll be no better off than women living under the Taliban.
Your TW friend sounds like she understands the situation well.

Your TW friend sounds like she understands the situation well.

I've heard a phrase similar to hers before... I think it's borrowed from somewhere!

Trans women are, I believe, quite varied. My friend doesn't always dress as a woman, either. I get the feeling she's quite comfortable in her identity - we don't talk about 'issues' much because we're more focused on the interest that unites the group and about which she's passionate.

Mollygo But women who are adult females are just women and do not need a qualifying adjective like cis, or natal, or anything else.

Elegran

Mollygo But women who are adult females are just women and do not need a qualifying adjective like cis, or natal, or anything else.

Exactly.

Elegran

Mollygo But women who are adult females are just women and do not need a qualifying adjective like cis, or natal, or anything else.

Those qualifiers have been imposed on us - but not by us, and because of the insistence by biological men that they can be women if they feel like it - we've had to use them to differentiate.

It's wholly wrong.

I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but (NO PUN intended) does the 'Cotton Ceiling' have relevance in the discussion? DD alerted me to the notion of it.

In what way, *Vintagenonna^?

Do share the information Vintagenonna. Why did your DD raise the subject? What relevance does your DD feel it might have?

Vintagenonna

I haven't been able to follow the entire thread but (NO PUN intended) does the 'Cotton Ceiling' have relevance in the discussion? DD alerted me to the notion of it.

What is your understanding, then, of the Cotton Ceiling - and why do you think it might be relevant?

Genuine questions - I'm puzzled why you bring it up without giving a view on it!

I usually find that reading the thread will tell me whether or not something has been covered.

Sorry to annoy (some of) you - other stuff cropped up. DD raised the subject of the 'Cotton Ceiling' as it is at the extreme end (she believes) of this topic where self-identified lesbian transwomen feel they could be treated as lesbians by other lesbians. I am not being delicate but I found it very hard to write about in a way that won't misrepresent strong views.

You are right, Doodlebug, reading the thread closely would have told me if the topic had been covered. And - as before - I apologise. To you especially and personally.

I googled the cotton ceiling as I confess it’s new to me.
this talk is about the clash of right between the movement for trans rights (transactivists) and the movement for lesbian rights and how and why theses two groups and ideologies are incompatible ….. and why lesbians cannot support trans rights without going against their own interests and rights as lesbians
Angela C Wild 2019

I don’t see the rights of the two groups as in conflict - transwomen are men, and lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to other women. Their rights have nothing to do with those of transpeople.

A transwoman who is attracted to women is a straight man, whose rights do not conflict with those of lesbians unless he believes that they should put aside their sexual preferences and have sex with him, for reasons I don’t understand.

No worries, VN.

Doodledog

I don’t see the rights of the two groups as in conflict - transwomen are men, and lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to other women. Their rights have nothing to do with those of transpeople.

A transwoman who is attracted to women is a straight man, whose rights do not conflict with those of lesbians unless he believes that they should put aside their sexual preferences and have sex with him, for reasons I don’t understand.

No worries, VN.

Exactly.
These TW might just as well go back to saying that being lesbian is wrong and that only heterosexual relationships are right.
Lesbians want their intimate relationships to be with females, so even straight men would be unacceptable.
Typical that TW males think that saying they are women should take away that right.

Doodledog

I don’t see the rights of the two groups as in conflict - transwomen are men, and lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to other women. Their rights have nothing to do with those of transpeople.

A transwoman who is attracted to women is a straight man, whose rights do not conflict with those of lesbians unless he believes that they should put aside their sexual preferences and have sex with him, for reasons I don’t understand.

No worries, VN.

A transwoman who is attracted to women is a straight man, whose rights do not conflict with those of lesbians unless he believes that they should put aside their sexual preferences and have sex with him, for reasons I don’t understand.

I have read reports and comments on various media to the effect that there have been instances where trans women have pressured lesbians to have sex with them, and their refusal has been deemed transphobic.

I've no idea how prevalent this is - and you never know with the media anyway, but some lesbians have spoken out about it.

I tend not to read the Daily Mail's take on the issues involved as I'm sure they'll take any opportunity to highlight trans-rights-gorn-mad and angle the pitch accordingly. But here's a BBC article, which is a tad disturbing.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

But, again, how prevalent is this? Is it the usual vocal minority who appear to want to trample on everyone else's rights in order to get their own?

... are you still resting DD, or up and about (and feeling decidedly awful)?

I had a relapse so am still resting, and feeling rough, but better than before.

I became aware of the way some transwomen behave towards lesbians when a good friend of mine met one online and arranged to meet what she thought was a woman in a bar. When she realised the truth and pulled out of the arrangement he got nasty and my friend was very shaken. I mentioned it on here and was effectively told I was lying. My accuser had never heard of such a thing so it mustn’t have been true.

I don’t know how common it is, but it happens, and once is once too often.

Do we know it’s a vocal minority of transwomen.

I get the impression that the transwomen quietly living their lives are the minority.

And that the aggressive vocal transwomen are now the majority of those who identify as trans.

They threaten heterosexual females, they threaten lesbians, they threaten gays. It wouldn’t surprise me to hear that they threaten transwomen who won’t join them.

In fact the only people they don’t threaten are heterosexual males🤔

Sorry you’re not feeling too well Doodledog.
Once is indeed too often. The implication made on this thread that TW (males) should not be stopped from attending lesbian dating events, but instead it’s up to the lesbians to cope with dealing with that when faced with a male would give rise to the same sort of problem as your friend’s experience.

Yes, it's always women who are asked to deal with all of this, isn't it? What would we do to police safe spaces? How would we ensure that any male-fancying adventurous lesbians are catered for at a lesbian (not a bisexual) event? How would we prevent black women from suffering undignified testing to make sure that men can't cheat at sport? If we can't answer, that's because we don't care, we are bigoted or unworldly, or even (as I was called when I said on here that hard cases make bad law in the case of Caster Smenya) that I belong in the KKK!

How the attitude that women need so sort out what are essentially man problems isn't patriarchal is beyond me.

Mollygo

Sorry you’re not feeling too well Doodledog.
Once is indeed too often. The implication made on this thread that TW (males) should not be stopped from attending lesbian dating events, but instead it’s up to the lesbians to cope with dealing with that when faced with a male would give rise to the same sort of problem as your friend’s experience.

I was under the impression that the criticism levelled at the organiser of the lesbian dating event was on the basis of her making the decision to deter trans women from attending and, thereby, depriving the "more adventurous" lesbians of widening their experience - because they hadn't been consulted.

My understanding is that she acted on the complaints of those who did object to the inclusion of TW, a couple of whom I believe had been harassed or intimidated by them.

Maybe some of the group didn't object - but so far, we haven't heard from them I don't think, if that is the case.

And the TWs who did object to being excluded managed to get the event closed, by reporting the organiser of the event as transphobic.

Presumably, in future, lesbians who don't want male-bodied trans women at their events - because they're not attracted to men - will have to go underground with such venues and organise them by word of mouth, making them private affairs where, presumably, one is still allowed a choice.

So, once again, a vocal minority of aggressive TW activists have barged into women's spaces, effectively closing them off. And there doesn't appear to be a damned thing anyone can do about it because local authorities, etc, are now all banging the drum of 'inclusivity', marginalising women further.

If a man can declare himself a woman whenever he feels like, and 'feminise' his penis by calling it a girl-dick and effectively insert himself into any group whenever he decides to, then we women are effectively screwed.

I wonder where this will lead us to and how it will all end? If we don't stand up to these bullying TWAs, and if politicians, businesses and organisations don't stop polishing their inclusivity badges, we'll be subsumed by this idiocy.

Dickens your final paragraph plunges me into despair because I fear it's all too accurate. The dignity and safety of women is in danger of being eradicated on the tide of this lunacy. I guarantee that if there had been role reversal and men's rights and privacy had been in question the movement would not have got off the ground. The cruelst part is the number of handmaidens joining the male cause

I too feel in despair. Women are being watered down and manipulated. Where will it end ?

Is it possible that if we allow the next generation of children to respond instinctively to what they like or don't like; allow them to play with whatever toys grab their imagination; wear the clothes they choose to wear; attempt to give them the tools to think critically as they grow - and above all, try to teach them not to be bullies... that they might not have so much angst in their formative years and later, in school?

And, I know it's the parents' responsibility - but the easy access to pornography is a gateway to corruption of young minds that are not yet equipped with the mental capacity to filter what they see and separate role-play from reality.

I don't think the transition from babyhood to childhood to adulthood is ever 'smooth' - but should it be as complex and anxiety-ridden as it appears to be now? There should be a time in childhood when the days are endless, time is irrelevant, and the opportunities are limitless; the one time in a short life where you can joyfully indulge yourself before you acquire the mantle of adulthood and all the responsibilities that go with it.

Why are so many children unhappy and why do they have so many mental health problems?

Doodledog

I don’t see the rights of the two groups as in conflict - transwomen are men, and lesbians are women who are sexually attracted to other women. Their rights have nothing to do with those of transpeople.

A transwoman who is attracted to women is a straight man, whose rights do not conflict with those of lesbians unless he believes that they should put aside their sexual preferences and have sex with him, for reasons I don’t understand.

No worries, VN.

I've tried to keep away. But I have to say here, surely it is very important to stop putting all trans women into the same category.

Those who aspire to being a woman, for whatever reason, and some full time and others for part of the time, represent one group. And your comment therefore applies.

But I cannot accept that trans women who have 100% committed to becoming a woman hormonally and physically, emotionally and sexually (yes they have fully functional vaginas and do feel pleasure and can orgasm), after a very long period of adjustment, and painful treatment- belong to a different category. These trans women would never try and impose their sexual will on lesbians, whom they consider as sisters. They, at least all the ones I know- wanted to become women partly in order to reject male violence, control and domination.

You just can't put them all in the same category- because it makes it simpler, etc. This is totally unfair.