What is a lesbian?

As for those who say I haven't read the article and I'm misrepresenting what was said. Anecdotal reporting is not evidence. It would have been perfectly possible to collect evidence and to clearly prove that the women attending the event would not attend if transwomen did. The organiser chose not to take that route, if it was through ignorance or ideology I have no idea. Had she chosen to make her case legally the event could have been exactly what she wanted it to be. As I said unfortunately she didn't do that.

Oh well. At least those who read the this thread will be able to discern the truth.

Lathyrus

Oh well. At least those who read the this thread will be able to discern the truth.

Without adding if . . . to make something say what they want.

Wow! Well done Glorianny!
At last, the deviation I’ve been waiting for. Religion
Unfortunately many of those condemning transpeople are playing into the hands of the right wing religious groups who are using the issue to promote the idea that women need protection and men must provide that.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.
Let’s not pretend that those poor women suffering under the Taliban are being protected.
It’s another example of men determined to get their own way.
As you have heard and ignored many times on GN, the TW being condemned, mostly by females, but also by men and other transwomen, are not transpeople or even TW in general, simply those misogynistic males who who set out to harm females, to override female rights, to chat and lie their way to success, and when thwarted, to resort to violence.
Whilst adamantly denying that you support any sort of violence, you continue on your merry way using every opportunity to support males.
That would be bad if the person continually promoting the support of males first, but doubly shameful if the person putting males first is a female.

Mollygo

Wow! Well done Glorianny!
At last, the deviation I’ve been waiting for. Religion
Unfortunately many of those condemning transpeople are playing into the hands of the right wing religious groups who are using the issue to promote the idea that women need protection and men must provide that.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.
Let’s not pretend that those poor women suffering under the Taliban are being protected.
It’s another example of men determined to get their own way.
As you have heard and ignored many times on GN, the TW being condemned, mostly by females, but also by men and other transwomen, are not transpeople or even TW in general, simply those misogynistic males who who set out to harm females, to override female rights, to chat and lie their way to success, and when thwarted, to resort to violence.
Whilst adamantly denying that you support any sort of violence, you continue on your merry way using every opportunity to support males.
That would be bad if the person continually promoting the support of males first, but doubly shameful if the person putting males first is a female.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.

Quite.

The aggressive, shouty, trans women waving placards with sexually explicit 'messages' centred around their 'girl-dicks' and directed at 'TERFS' are a sub-set of the misogynist male - males that use their dicks as a weapon against women who will not submit to their demands. Typical male misogynistic behaviour.

.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

Doodledog

*.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women*
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

Spot on, Doodledog

Even if these trans women may think they are now women, do they not realise they are behaving like misogynistic males?
🤔

And Dickens
And everyone who fights against this determined erosion of women's hard fought for rights.

Glorianny

As for those who say I haven't read the article and I'm misrepresenting what was said. Anecdotal reporting is not evidence. It would have been perfectly possible to collect evidence and to clearly prove that the women attending the event would not attend if transwomen did. The organiser chose not to take that route, if it was through ignorance or ideology I have no idea. Had she chosen to make her case legally the event could have been exactly what she wanted it to be. As I said unfortunately she didn't do that.

Why would the organiser take a legal route? She was organising a an evening for a relatively small group of women. If women wanting to have female-only events had to resort to the law every time, it would cost a fortune, take ages and in the end there would be very few opportunities for women to get together without men. Misogynist would be delighted.

Oh, hang on. . . .

Doodledog

*.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women*
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

👏

... I'd add that the opportunity "to be more sexually adventurous" is (a) a very personal and individual choice, and (b) one that is probably fairly available to most without the need for it to be sanctioned or enforced by any local or government authority.

If lesbians want to venture into unknown 'territory' they will make it clear (or just do it) in the same way that hetero women will. There is no bar to women who want to experiment in the trans world - these women, lesbians, are not being denied an opportunity and if they thought they were, I think they'd make that clear. The organiser of the event can take a 'vote' from those invited on the invitees without any outside interference.

If I wanted to set up a "knit-and-natter" evening, I'd open it to anyone who wanted to - well, knit and natter, as their biological sex or orientation would not matter. If, on the other hand, I wanted to organise a speed-dating event for grannies who might be foot-loose and fancy free - I, and they - might want some control over those invited to a potentially 'intimate' environment.

In answer to the OP what is a lesbian ?

I know what isn’t a lesbian and that’s a man in tight leggings sporting an erection…

Of course, Dickens, but Glorianny just likes to suggest that her fellow Gransnetters are less worldly than she is. That there is zero evidence for this is irrelevant.

Having sex with someone with a penis is not more adventurous, the exact opposite frequently.

I just need to clarify that a woman who organises a lesbian only event is upholding the patriarchy so I am guessing the penis owner was what smashing the patriarchy?

Galaxy

Having sex with someone with a penis is not more adventurous, the exact opposite frequently.

🤣🤣🤣
I don’t get the adventurous reference when it means having to have sex with someone who doesn’t meet your criteria for an acceptable partner.
In my younger days, adventurous was having sex in unexpected places, like in a tent half way up Kilimanjaro, or when sharing a (grantedly large) bedroom with my in-laws.

Galaxy

I just need to clarify that a woman who organises a lesbian only event is upholding the patriarchy so I am guessing the penis owner was what smashing the patriarchy?

No, but patriarchal methods are not the sole responsibility of men, some women use them as well. The reason being of course that they are raised in a patriarchal society and accept patriarchal methods of administration as the only acceptable ones. Taking time to examine the methods being used is always valuable, and many times there are ways to meet the same aims by using less dictatorial methods. From these we can build a more feminised society and inspire the next generation to create a more inclusive and equal world.
Sadly some look at feminism and still think the only way to do this is by behaving in the same way as men, something which was advocated in the 70s, but hasn't really led to success for women.

Which 'some' are these, Glorianny, and do you have examples, please? These vague comments so often sound like digs, which are not in the spirit of GN, but maybe you don't mean them like that?

Dickens

Doodledog

.So whilst I would always agree that those spaces should exist they must always be under the control of the women who use them and not dictated by some outside body or the state, because any other process is patriarchal and leads to the loss of independence for women
Well yes. Yet here you are, arguing against someone setting up a space for lesbians (for an evening) and claiming that the women who use that space should be ‘given the opportunity to be more sexually adventurous’ by admitting men, dictated by an outside body. You even suggested that the state should be able to enforce male entry via the EA. You really don’t approve of women’s rights, do you?

👏

... I'd add that the opportunity "to be more sexually adventurous" is (a) a very personal and individual choice, and (b) one that is probably fairly available to most without the need for it to be sanctioned or enforced by any local or government authority.

If lesbians want to venture into unknown 'territory' they will make it clear (or just do it) in the same way that hetero women will. There is no bar to women who want to experiment in the trans world - these women, lesbians, are not being denied an opportunity and if they thought they were, I think they'd make that clear. The organiser of the event can take a 'vote' from those invited on the invitees without any outside interference.

If I wanted to set up a "knit-and-natter" evening, I'd open it to anyone who wanted to - well, knit and natter, as their biological sex or orientation would not matter. If, on the other hand, I wanted to organise a speed-dating event for grannies who might be foot-loose and fancy free - I, and they - might want some control over those invited to a potentially 'intimate' environment.

Speed dating isn't really "intimate" though is it?
It's held in a public place where you chat for a few minutes to each person.
There are ways of limiting who attends. Hetero speed dating always involves tickets to ensure equal numbers of men and women attend. Some have age restrictions.
I fully agree that some lesbians wouldn't want transwomen there, but I have no idea if all would feel like that. I don't think anyone on GN knows either, so their supposed championing of lesbians is actually just labelling them and sticking them into a box which suits their own prejudices and preconceptions.

Of course both men and women attend heterosexual dating events, The clues are there, aren't they? Are women likely to be welcome at a similar one for gay men? I doubt it.

Please stop justifying your egregious lack of concern for women's rights as inclusivity 😂. There is more than a little of the 'white saviour' mentality going on there - mixed with a very large dose of arrogance.

Mollygo

Wow! Well done Glorianny!
At last, the deviation I’ve been waiting for. Religion
Unfortunately many of those condemning transpeople are playing into the hands of the right wing religious groups who are using the issue to promote the idea that women need protection and men must provide that.

Women don’t want men to provide protection from the actions of TW, TRA etc. They would like men to stop their misogyny.
Let’s not pretend that those poor women suffering under the Taliban are being protected.
It’s another example of men determined to get their own way.
As you have heard and ignored many times on GN, the TW being condemned, mostly by females, but also by men and other transwomen, are not transpeople or even TW in general, simply those misogynistic males who who set out to harm females, to override female rights, to chat and lie their way to success, and when thwarted, to resort to violence.
Whilst adamantly denying that you support any sort of violence, you continue on your merry way using every opportunity to support males.
That would be bad if the person continually promoting the support of males first, but doubly shameful if the person putting males first is a female.

Bringing religion into it, it was a comment about a book I have read and loved for many years, which is about religion. Sadly so many people who watched the TV series failed to understand the significance of the name "Gilead" the references to the bible, or the problems with the status of women in far right religions.
Unfortunately these are the same regardless of if it is a Muslim or Christian religion. The men responsible and the women who support them believe they are protecting women. Nor is it just men who believe this. Some women follow the same beliefs absolutely.
I have never supported males at the expense of females I do however know that there are women who are just as divisive and restrictive in their views as men and would always oppose those views.

That has to be the most ironic post I have ever seen.

Glorianny once again
is actually just labelling them and sticking them into a box which suits her or maybe his own prejudices and preconceptions.

Glorianny in my experience on GN
has always supported males at the expense of females.
Happily,
I do however know that there are women (or men) who aren’t so divisive and restrictive in their views.

NB using religion as a basis for your argument about protection by men is sad and misguided.
It would, if they could read it, leave those women suffering under Taliban rules thinking that women? like you condone the misogyny of the males.

I think the cancelled lesbian speed-dating event just highlights the corrosive effect of biological men demanding that natal women believe the fallacy that they too are women.

Apart from the conditions that blur the line between male and female - Disorders of Sexual Development which, though varied and complex, are still rare, a biological man with fully developed penis and testes is a man. Lesbians in general are not physically attracted to men... according to a lesbian friend of our family who we've known for a number of years. It isn't just about the penis - as one lesbian wrote, maybe on GN, I can't remember, the masculine jaw-line, the masculine voice, the sometimes prominent Adam's Apple, etc... these are male anatomical features that lesbians do not find attractive.

Of course, there are exceptions to the lesbian 'norm' - but were they among the prospective attendees at the dating event? If so - they didn't speak up. But the others did and now, together with the event organiser, are labelled transphobic by the shouty TW activists who, in the name of "inclusivity" want to barge their way into women's spaces - yet again. They are not being discriminated against - the lesbian women just don't fancy them and, as yet, there is no law which insists that in the name of inclusivity you have to be attracted to all and any sex or gender group. Why don't they organise an event, open to all, then any lesbians who want to take the opportunity of being "adventurous" will turn up?

As a feminist, I've demanded to be allowed into the hallowed precincts of all-male environments where it has plainly been discriminatory to be barred from them - sports locations, etc - but I don't insist on going into their changing rooms, or showers. If they are homosexual, I don't demand that I be allowed into their dating events. If they are attending a medical facility dealing with specific male conditions, I don't demand that the language in which their ailments / conditions is described is changed to make it relevant to me. If they are the victims of female spousal abuse, I don't demand that women must be included in the hierarchy of advisors and counsellors.

Again, these shouty TW activists with their cardboard placards are men who will not accept that women have spaces where they don't belong. They are not trying to break down the barriers of discrimination, they are determined to eliminate biological women as a demographic, because we are the last bastion that they need to conquer in order to eradicate us because we are the major threat now to their dominance of the whole of society. If they, too, can be women - they can dictate the terms and conditions of womanhood; they can make it be whatever they say it is, and have complete control of women. And that is exactly what they are doing, and the stupid government, and businesses are all going along with the myth of TWAW in order to polish their credentials.

As my TW friend said when we skirted around some of these issues awhile back now (though we didn't get too deep), "I am among you, but I am not of you".

Glorianny

Galaxy

I just need to clarify that a woman who organises a lesbian only event is upholding the patriarchy so I am guessing the penis owner was what smashing the patriarchy?

No, but patriarchal methods are not the sole responsibility of men, some women use them as well. The reason being of course that they are raised in a patriarchal society and accept patriarchal methods of administration as the only acceptable ones. Taking time to examine the methods being used is always valuable, and many times there are ways to meet the same aims by using less dictatorial methods. From these we can build a more feminised society and inspire the next generation to create a more inclusive and equal world.
Sadly some look at feminism and still think the only way to do this is by behaving in the same way as men, something which was advocated in the 70s, but hasn't really led to success for women.

Which women’s groups in the 70’s were advocating behaving like men?
I was involved with three active groups- declare yourself a political lesbian was often discussed and occasionally acted on. Behave like a man - never

Dickens an excellent post! Anybody who reads it and still doesn't 'get it' is, in my opinion, wilfully refusing to. We've been on a slippery slope for a long time, and if we don't stand firm now, we'll be back to medieval conditions for women where they truly were chattels. We'll be no better off than women living under the Taliban.
Your TW friend sounds like she understands the situation well.