What is a lesbian?

VS
Allies are people who understand gender dysphoria

So that would make me one of the allies.

Lesbians and their allies are people who understand that males are not lesbians and therefore should not attend lesbian only events.
Transwomen are not women, they are male and therefore cannot be lesbian. Maybe you are used to pushing in where you are not invited Glorianny. It seems TW also support that behaviour.

Glorianny I see you have had to revert to using an unpleasant and unnecessary qualifier for the word women.
Transwomen are not women, they are male and therefore cannot be lesbian.

Had the lesbian speed dating advertised as "Ciswomen welcome" I'd have no objection.
So you do object to lesbians daring to want something for themselves? And are lesbians not so-called 'ciswomen'? It's not a word I use, as I find it offensive (as you know) but my understanding is that it just means what used to be called 'women' - people born as female. So why would there be a need to point out that so-called 'ciswomen' are welcome at an event that, by definition, includes them and excludes those who were not born female?

Really openness and inclusivity is simple., Not as simple as you suggest, it seems.

Doodledog

*Had the lesbian speed dating advertised as "Ciswomen welcome" I'd have no objection.*
So you do object to lesbians daring to want something for themselves? And are lesbians not so-called 'ciswomen'? It's not a word I use, as I find it offensive (as you know) but my understanding is that it just means what used to be called 'women' - people born as female. So why would there be a need to point out that so-called 'ciswomen' are welcome at an event that, by definition, includes them and excludes those who were not born female?

Really openness and inclusivity is simple., Not as simple as you suggest, it seems.

No -do you really not understand the difference between saying people are welcome and banning someone Doodledog? Or just it just depend upon the people who fit your prejudices.
So
Saying transpeopple, non-binary people and their allies are welcome at an event is not banning anyone.
Saying ciswomen are welcome at an event is not banning anyone.
I was simply using similar. language to that used in the advert you found offensive.

How many times do I have to say. Lesbians have a legal right to an event which excludes transwomen and I support that legal right.

Really openness and inclusivity is simple, unfortunately some people are intent on picking holes in it, usually to suit their own prejudices.

For the record-you have a perfect right to ask that I do not refer to you as a ciswoman. You do not have the right to ban the use of the word completely. All this proves is that any level of discrimination and division always moves into other areas and has to make more restrictions, in this case the words I use.

Glorianny
offensive.

How many times do I have to say. Lesbians have a legal right to an event which excludes transwomen and I support that legal right.

Except that you have to add riders which would give permission to people who cannot possibly be lesbian to be admitted because it fits your prejudices.

You seem to feel your prejudices are better than anyone else’s.
Transwomen are not women and therefore cannot be lesbian.
They can be a truthful male who wants a relationship with a woman-but would still be unacceptable to lesbians.

Mollygo

Glorianny
offensive.

How many times do I have to say. Lesbians have a legal right to an event which excludes transwomen and I support that legal right.

Except that you have to add riders which would give permission to people who cannot possibly be lesbian to be admitted because it fits your prejudices.

You seem to feel your prejudices are better than anyone else’s.
Transwomen are not women and therefore cannot be lesbian.
They can be a truthful male who wants a relationship with a woman-but would still be unacceptable to lesbians.

Up to lesbians who they think is a lesbian Mollygo I would imagine there are differing opinions much like other groups in society. I certainly wouldn't dream of dictating to them what their views should be.
Unlike others who insist their opinion is the one that they must conform to.
That's the thing about discrimination, you have to impose your views onto others.

Please don't tell me what I find offensive. Or that I am trying to ban the use of words - can you point to where I said that please, or is it your prejudice at play again?

If anyone is picking holes in inclusivity it is you, when you claim that it is up to lesbians to refuse to attend an event (with the attendant risk of aggression and retribution that we have seen all too often from TRAs) in order to keep it to themselves.

One minute you claim to support their right to exclude transwomen and the next you say that you 'would have supported it' had they adhered to your interpretation of the legal position - which is it? At least be consistent in your misogyny.

I certainly wouldn't dream of dictating to them what their views should be.
But you are the one who suggested that they might like to be more 'adventurous' by having sex with men!

Unlike others who insist their opinion is the one that they must conform to.
Which 'others' are these, please? It is impossible to know whether I agree with you or not when you talk in such vague terms.

That's the thing about discrimination, you have to impose your views onto others.
Well yes. You have imposed the idea of 'adventurous' (or indiscriminate) sex being something that other women should try onto them, even when they have expressly stated that they want to attend a lesbian dating event, not one designed for all comers.

Doodledog

*I certainly wouldn't dream of dictating to them what their views should be.*
But you are the one who suggested that they might like to be more 'adventurous' by having sex with men!

Unlike others who insist their opinion is the one that they must conform to.
Which 'others' are these, please? It is impossible to know whether I agree with you or not when you talk in such vague terms.

That's the thing about discrimination, you have to impose your views onto others.
Well yes. You have imposed the idea of 'adventurous' (or indiscriminate) sex being something that other women should try onto them, even when they have expressly stated that they want to attend a lesbian dating event, not one designed for all comers.

They might Doodledog or they might not. But I certainly wouldn't deny them an opportunity if they wanted it (how is that dictating exactly?- please explain)

I don't really care if you agree with me or not

I haven't imposed anything merely said that not all lesbians are the same.

This thread is surpassing all others for supporting an insupportable idea by blaming me for things I certainly haven't said. It's really amusing me.
For the record
Lesbians who want to ban transwomen from meetings can do so using the law.
Lesbians who don't mind transwomen, and think they are women, can do whatsoever they like with them and are still lesbians.

Lesbians who don't want trans women at a lesbian speed dating event shouldn't have to ban them by using the law or any other means, because they shouldn't be there in the first place; they are not women ergo they are not lesbians.

It's not about agreeing with you, as you keep moving the goalposts.

I am not accusing you of saying things you haven't said - you are the one who suggested that transwomen should have been allowed to attend a lesbian event as some lesbians might want to have 'more adventurous' sex with them. That may amuse you (you are always finding things 'funny' that others find disturbing), but each to her own.

Are you now saying that the law prevents people from holding events with limited access? Private parties? Classes with entry requirements?

I have spelt out that IMO any adult can have sex with any other consenting adult - none of my business - and that lesbians who sometimes have sex with men are still lesbians, so don't try to twist that to suit your agenda - the point is that many of us on this thread want women to be able to make choices of their own, and to be able to attend an event 'for lesbians' safe in the knowledge that people they meet there will be women. If they want to have sex with transwomen they are, of course, at liberty to do so, but they won't expect to meet them at an event for lesbians.

I can't believe that you are still failing to grasp this. It's really not complicated.

Glorianny

Lesbians who want to ban transwomen from meetings can do so using the law.
Lesbians who don't mind transwomen, and think they are women, can do whatsoever they like with them and are still lesbians.

It's really rather depressing that the law has to be involved. Granted, the law has to protect people's - any people's - rights, but when it comes to what should be simple matters, like dating, which are basically social events - perhaps it might be more civilised if the organiser was able to take a vote from the prospective lesbian attendees as to whether they wanted to include transwomen (or even the non-binary) in the event. This would be the easiest and less complicated way of dealing with the matter.

But I have the feeling that those TW like the individual who displayed his penis similar to a strutting cockerel, and those that intimidated (and I believe there was also an assault) some lesbians, would immediately lodge accusations of "transphobia". God, there must be some transwomen who are sophisticated enough to organise their own dating event - inviting lesbians - surely, that would be one way of meeting compatible partners between the two groups?

Smileless2012

Lesbians who don't want trans women at a lesbian speed dating event shouldn't have to ban them by using the law or any other means, because they shouldn't be there in the first place; they are not women ergo they are not lesbians.

It’s so sad Smileless2012.

If you read her posts, it’s obvious that G thinks males, are the most important and their wishes are paramount.

Obviously, the truth - transwomen are male and therefore cannot be lesbians isn’t going to get in the way of her supporting males before females.
Her posts are amusing in their constant predictability and support of males, whilst pretending to be inclusive.
For the record (I liked those three words in her post, they mean if you haven’t already grasped that she supports males before females)
For the record they can be summed up in this way.
For the record She supports females providing it doesn’t inconvenience males.

For the record Mention of her supporting females will have a rider demanding that females do something extra before they’re allowed to exclude males.

And of course,

For the record as a male, she implies it’s OK to push in where you are not wanted by claiming you are something you are not.

If anyone is still reading this (congratulations!) who is still unsure why it is that many gay people want to be disassociated from the trans movement, it may now be clear to them.

Sexuality, Sex and Gender are all different things, so when a man (someone of the male sex) who says he is a woman (because he has chosen a different gender) turns up to a lesbian event because he wants to have sex (activity) with a lesbian (a women whose sexuality means that she prefers to have sex with other women), and she refuses, he is not in any way respecting her right to agency - and the accusation that her refusal is born of transphobia is idiotic - the chances are very high that it is because her sexuality means that she is not attracted to men. He is not a lesbian - he is a straight man, who is sexually attracted to women. It is this conflation of sexuality and gender that forms the dichotomy between gay people and transpeople.

It may have been the case that at one time the commonality of having been subject to prejudice drew them together, but the rights of gay people have now been encroached on to such an extent that they are being told that homosexuality doesn't exist - it needs to be 'reframed' as 'same-gender attraction'.

This means that not only will women cease to exist as a sex class, but gay people will cease to exist too. We will have men and non-men, which will include those who used to be women and gay people.

It was Stonewall who added TQ+ to LGB (Lesbian Gay and Bi - which are categories based on sexuality) forcing a conflation of the two entirely separate traits. What used to be a group who supported same-sex rights has now become a catch-all for anyone who is not straight, and no longer serves the people who set it up in the first place, as can be seen by situations such as this one, where gay women are unable to hold events without their being encroached upon by transwomen wanting them to 'reframe their sexuality' (AKA be more 'adventurous' and have sex with men). The fact that doing so eradicates the whole concept of lesbianism is secondary to the immediate wants of the transwomen and their allies, who don't care about the women they are walking all over to get their way.

Smileless2012

Lesbians who don't want trans women at a lesbian speed dating event shouldn't have to ban them by using the law or any other means, because they shouldn't be there in the first place; they are not women ergo they are not lesbians.

Some lesbians believe transwomen are women. You really cant dictate what people think much as you might like to.

Dickens

Glorianny

Lesbians who want to ban transwomen from meetings can do so using the law.
Lesbians who don't mind transwomen, and think they are women, can do whatsoever they like with them and are still lesbians.

It's really rather depressing that the law has to be involved. Granted, the law has to protect people's - any people's - rights, but when it comes to what should be simple matters, like dating, which are basically social events - perhaps it might be more civilised if the organiser was able to take a vote from the prospective lesbian attendees as to whether they wanted to include transwomen (or even the non-binary) in the event. This would be the easiest and less complicated way of dealing with the matter.

But I have the feeling that those TW like the individual who displayed his penis similar to a strutting cockerel, and those that intimidated (and I believe there was also an assault) some lesbians, would immediately lodge accusations of "transphobia". God, there must be some transwomen who are sophisticated enough to organise their own dating event - inviting lesbians - surely, that would be one way of meeting compatible partners between the two groups?

Of course it would but that didn't happen did it.?
There are loads of ways transwomen could have been discouraged from attending, but were not.
Quite why the organiser chose the method she did I have no idea. But it hasn't had the best result.

Mollygo

Smileless2012

Lesbians who don't want trans women at a lesbian speed dating event shouldn't have to ban them by using the law or any other means, because they shouldn't be there in the first place; they are not women ergo they are not lesbians.

It’s so sad Smileless2012.

If you read her posts, it’s obvious that G thinks males, are the most important and their wishes are paramount.

Obviously, the truth - transwomen are male and therefore cannot be lesbians isn’t going to get in the way of her supporting males before females.
Her posts are amusing in their constant predictability and support of males, whilst pretending to be inclusive.
For the record (I liked those three words in her post, they mean if you haven’t already grasped that she supports males before females)
For the record they can be summed up in this way.
For the record She supports females providing it doesn’t inconvenience males.

For the record Mention of her supporting females will have a rider demanding that females do something extra before they’re allowed to exclude males.

And of course,

For the record as a male, she implies it’s OK to push in where you are not wanted by claiming you are something you are not.

I think there are probably lesbians who think exactly like you do Mollygo. but there are also lesbians who think transwomen are women. And some even have relationships with transwomen and still call themselves lesbians.
I don't think it is up to you to decide the way everyone should think.
Prejudice and discrimination always want to impose their views onto others. Your absolute disrespect for my views shows just how deeply prejudice is embedded in some people, and how they are unable to accept anything other than complete capitulation. Possibly because they find other points of view disturbing and rather than discuss anything, they seek just to silence or misrepresent others. It's sad really.

Some lesbians believe transwomen are women. You really cant dictate what people think much as you might like to.
I don't see anything in Smileless' post that suggests she is dictating what others think (which is ironic coming from you!). Some lesbians no doubt do believe that TWAW, that the Earth is flat and that the moon is made of green cheese.

That is not the point. The point is that a dating event for lesbians is to cater for lesbians, not a subset who believes that TWAW or who enjoy baking. Those ones can go to (or organise) separate events where transwomen and bakers are included, as well as to the straightforward one under discussion, which was designed for women to meet other women.

What a load of old tripe all this is, no insult to those identifying as old trip intended.

Old tripe not trip, but I think a lot of them are on one,

I'm not sure who you are insulting here, Allsorts - perhaps you could explain?

Glorianny says,
There are loads of ways transwomen could have been discouraged from attending, but were not.

For the record Yes there probably are.

Relying on the honesty of TW was inevitably the wrong choice to make.

When TW and their allies have already proved they’re capable of cheating, lying and resorting to violence in order to get what they want, why would anyone think that a simple request would be effective in stopping them demanding entrance to a lesbians only event.

For the record
Glorianny says lesbians (who are by their title are sexually attracted to females) might not really be lesbians and might want to be ‘adventurous’ with males and so would choose a lesbian only event to find out. 🤣🤣🤣
According to Glorianny’s POV, the TW who used their usual tactics to attend the event might be said to be doing lesbians a favour.🤣🤣

Glorianny

Dickens

Glorianny

Lesbians who want to ban transwomen from meetings can do so using the law.
Lesbians who don't mind transwomen, and think they are women, can do whatsoever they like with them and are still lesbians.

It's really rather depressing that the law has to be involved. Granted, the law has to protect people's - any people's - rights, but when it comes to what should be simple matters, like dating, which are basically social events - perhaps it might be more civilised if the organiser was able to take a vote from the prospective lesbian attendees as to whether they wanted to include transwomen (or even the non-binary) in the event. This would be the easiest and less complicated way of dealing with the matter.

But I have the feeling that those TW like the individual who displayed his penis similar to a strutting cockerel, and those that intimidated (and I believe there was also an assault) some lesbians, would immediately lodge accusations of "transphobia". God, there must be some transwomen who are sophisticated enough to organise their own dating event - inviting lesbians - surely, that would be one way of meeting compatible partners between the two groups?

Of course it would but that didn't happen did it.?
There are loads of ways transwomen could have been discouraged from attending, but were not.
Quite why the organiser chose the method she did I have no idea. But it hasn't had the best result.

Quite why the organiser chose the method she did I have no idea. But it hasn't had the best result.

At a guess, I'd say she chose that particular method because of the reports of intimidation, harassment and assault by TW. And thought what the hell, they are out to cause trouble so I'll ask them not to attend.

Lesbians are and have been under huge pressure to accept transwomen as sexual partners so as not to be labelled TERFS. They have been called "transphobic bigots", "hateful". "Nazis"... and it has been suggested (by TW) that they have their personal details published on social media, that they should be "dragged out by their saggy tits" - and they've had death threats and rape threats.

And then, when they organise a lesbian dating event, lo and behold, some TW turn up to continue the pattern of behaviour.

I think, under the circumstances, I can forgive the organiser for not going down the 'correct' legal route - one which would undoubtedly have raised more transwomen hackles, drawn more accusations of transphobia and quite probably attracted more rape and death threats.

So to sit there and smugly write that the organiser should've done this legally is to my mind rather underhand and a little devious. And so easy to say - when you know full well that the challenge would've resulted in condemnation from the usual transwomen quarters.

It's possible there were some lesbians who would not have been averse to a dabble with a TW - none of us know - but it wouldn't be too difficult for them to look elsewhere for the experience - the applicable social media sites are fairly well stocked with various demographics wanting to have sex with lesbians, and by comparison with the backlash that the organiser would've received when her legal course of action became public, the inconvenience of such lesbians not being able to have a transwomen moving around the circle, is very damned minor.

The organiser was never going to get "the best result" whatever route she took to deal with the problem. The very best result would've been for those particular transwomen to just stay the hell away. They caused the problem and are being championed by you and VS and the organiser gets the fallout and reprisals - the banning of the event - caused by them.

Dickens
The organiser was never going to get "the best result" whatever route she took to deal with the problem. The very best result would've been for those particular transwomen to just stay the hell away. They caused the problem and are being championed by you and VS and the organiser gets the fallout and reprisals - the banning of the event - caused by them.

It’s the sheer dishonesty of this group of males and the support of their dishonesty by Glorianny and VS that is quite breathtaking.
Do the vocal group of TW involved and their allies like G & VS, champion dishonesty, lying, cheating and violence in their everyday lives or is it just in relation to male wants taking precedence over females?
It’s a cause for concern, especially when I keep hearing about the law being advocated. Where does the law condone dishonesty, lying, cheating and violence just to get what you want?

Some lesbians as well as others may believe that trans women are women Glorianny but that doesn't alter the fact that they are men so cannot be lesbians.

People used to believe that the world is flat, but it isn't is it. I am not dictating what people think or what they believe, they can believe what they like, but that doesn't make it true does it.

I genuinely don't understand why you keep going on about the different ways trans women could have been discouraged. There shouldn't have been any need for them to be discouraged, the fact that it was a dating event for lesbians, if any discouragement was needed, should have been enough.

It's about respect and honesty which are clearly missing when it comes to TRA's.

Yes it is sad Mollygo. Very sad to see that there are women who put the 'rights' of trans women above women and I put rights in inverted commas because what rights do they think they're being deprived of? Oh of course, the right to take away the long hard for rights of women and right for lesbians to live the life they have chosen without being subjected to assaults, threats and intimidation from biological males.

Smileless 'Some lesbians as well as others may believe that trans women are women Glorianny but that doesn't alter the fact that they are men so cannot be lesbians.'

and why does it matter to you, if some lesbians, who believe that trans who have gone through the full transformation, have breasts and a vagina- choose to have lesbian relationships with those they believe to now be women? Why shouldn't they if they so wish. Who are you, or anyone, to tell them they can't - or they wan't be able to call themselves lesbian anymore?

I don't get it, personally- but it is none of my blooming business.

And I am not talking here about men in lycra with a visible erection- there for the hell of it and cause trouble.