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What is a lesbian?

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FarNorth Sun 13-Aug-23 00:31:17

Did you think it's uncontroversial to say that lesbians are women (adult female humans) who are sexually attracted to other women (adult female humans)?

You'd be wrong.

Men (adult male humans) can be lesbians too.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12401009/amp/Lesbian-speed-dating-event-sparks-transphobia-row-organisers-insist-adult-human-females-attend-popular-weekly-event.html?ico=amp_articleRelated_with_images

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 13:21:40

Dickens ''Why would a trans woman with male genitalia intact and squashed into a revealing item of clothing go to a dating event among lesbians - if not to cause trouble?'' of course, and I have said so and agreed.

I am not talking about them. And I have also agreed that such events should not be for biological men who have 'chosen' to have full reversal and live as 'females' (and I have also totally agred that this is not simple to define- but they will know what that means, for them, every single minute).

Doodledog Sun 13-Aug-23 13:23:34

Fleurpepper

But sorry' a fully reversed man, is not and never will be 'a straight man' - saying so is, to may mind. totally wrong and insensitive too.

As I said in my post, I was referring to the latex-wearing erection man. He is not a lesbian, he s a straight man, getting off on frightening women.

vampirequeen Sun 13-Aug-23 13:25:13

Dickens

vampirequeen

I read the comment to mean that they only want transwomen who have had surgery not that a man cannot become a woman.

Do you believe a man can become a woman?

Of course. I know I am a woman and I was lucky enough to have been born into a woman's body. I can't imagine the pain someone suffers when their physical gender doesn't match their mental gender. At primary I taught a very distressed and troubled little boy. She is now a wonderful and happy young woman. She knew she wasn't a boy but didn't understand why she was different so was in a permanent state of distress and confusion.

We are not defined by our physical bodies but by our minds. Sadly things can go wrong in the womb. We accept that children can be born with all sorts of physical conditions that we correct if possible. Incorrect gender is just another physical condition that we can, if the person wants it, correct.

Lathyrus Sun 13-Aug-23 13:28:42

I don’t think I’ve suggested anyone should commit suicide or even , I hope implied it in any way.

I respect the commitment that the fully transitioned have to their chosen lifestyle, even though I don’t understand what it is that defines a “woman” . All the women I know are do very different in their living, thinking, living, I wouldn’t know where to start.

But the one thing females have in common is the way that their genetics affect their bodies and the same is for males. In a number of medical respects. Statistically and specifically as in conditions such as muscular dystrophy or haemophilia or breast cancer, even with removal.

I know you are passionate about this but denying biological and medical evidence really does no one any good and could be disastrous for some.

Callistemon21 Sun 13-Aug-23 13:29:41

Fleurpepper

Lathyrus

Just going back a bit *Fleurpepper” to where you asked what right I have to “decree” following my comment on not being able to change genetic sex.

I don’t believe that is possible (yet-it may be in the future) but if you can show me a case where the genetics have been changed I’m very willing to consider it.

Whether you have the male gene or don’t have ot will affect your body throughout your life regardless of surgery or hormones. It’s just a medical fact.
Just as any genetic condition will affect those who have it.

It might be a decree but it’s Natures not mine.

And I have to respect that you feel that may, and many many others.

But I disagree that it is that simple. It just is not. I have been part of their journey, and seen the pain in so so many ways. If what you say is the only way to think or believe- than it would probably have been kinder to tell them to just accept that their are make and that there is nothing they can do about it.

And just let them commit suicide, as so many did before them- because for many, that is the only alternative.

It is not just that Lathyrus feels or thinks something - it is fact.

Supporting someone who wishes to change gender is one thing and the right thing to do.

Believing that someone can change sex is wrong as it is not possible.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 13:40:32

Lathyrus

I don’t think I’ve suggested anyone should commit suicide or even , I hope implied it in any way.

I respect the commitment that the fully transitioned have to their chosen lifestyle, even though I don’t understand what it is that defines a “woman” . All the women I know are do very different in their living, thinking, living, I wouldn’t know where to start.

But the one thing females have in common is the way that their genetics affect their bodies and the same is for males. In a number of medical respects. Statistically and specifically as in conditions such as muscular dystrophy or haemophilia or breast cancer, even with removal.

I know you are passionate about this but denying biological and medical evidence really does no one any good and could be disastrous for some.

No, of course you have not suggested that. But I know that for those I know denying them the choice would have meant just that. I also know some for whom it has meant just that, in the past. I am not 'passionate about that' - I am trying to understand and be fair and empathise.

Genetics are one thing- but the heart, the soul, the past, the future, is another thing.

As for medical issues, those people, who have chosen to become very different to what genetics have thrown at them- are fully aware that they are medically and genetically male. Males can of course suffer from breast cancer anyhow.

The reason they have chosen to become female, is often because they have suffered from the controlling masculinity of their fathers or other males around them. So to then punish them, so to speak, because some men 'pretend' to be trans, to control and cause hassle to others, in this case lesbians, seems very wrong and unfair to me.

Parsley3 Sun 13-Aug-23 13:59:07

The reason for asking men not to turn up at this event is valid. I wouldn't want to be in the company of a latex clad person with an erection and I wouldn't want a person to press their body against mine in the toilet. Perhaps they should have changed the word from men to sexual preditors because those interlopers clearly didn't know how to behave in the company of women.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 14:01:10

Totally.

That does not invalidate what I am trying to say at all.

Lathyrus Sun 13-Aug-23 14:06:43

I genuinely don’t understand your last paragraph Fleurpepper about choosing to become female because of controlling masculine presences. They can’t think it’s going to be any better when living as a woman!

M0nica Sun 13-Aug-23 14:23:28

Surely if a physically entire man with an erection who identifies as a female attends a lesbian event wanting to meet up with woman, complete, that just proves that he is heterosexual and doesn't belong there.

Transwomen are not automatically homosexual, Following their logic they should be attending male homosexual meet-ups to meet men as the masculine half og their femininity.

Or have i got it all completely mixed up!

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 14:28:42

Lathyrus

I genuinely don’t understand your last paragraph Fleurpepper about choosing to become female because of controlling masculine presences. They can’t think it’s going to be any better when living as a woman!

Yes, and yes.

One example I know well- grew up with mum and two older sisters, with a controlling, violent, alcoholic male. And always wanted to be like his mother and his sisters, to fight against his father's violence and control. He felt he couldn't truly be with mum and sisters, and all the other women suffering from same. And from a very young age, wanted to be with them, by becoming 'like them' and not 'like him'.

Mrsluckhurst Sun 13-Aug-23 14:30:01

MissChateline

As far as I’m concerned a person who is born male, has a penis, and starts life as a male is and will always be male. He can have surgery to remove his penis. But he remains a male with no penis. He can have breast tissue surgery, but he remains a male with false breasts. He can take female hormones, but that doesn’t make him any more than a male taking drugs.
He can tell me that he is now a woman, but that doesn’t mean that he IS a women. He will always be for me a male who has had surgery and no idea of what it is really like being a woman and certainly not a lesbian.
He can not and never will be a lesbian. I’ve never been to a lesbian ( or any other) speed dating occasion but he would receive very short shrift from myself and many other lesbians who feel the same way.

100% agree. flowers

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 14:30:33

M0nica

Surely if a physically entire man with an erection who identifies as a female attends a lesbian event wanting to meet up with woman, complete, that just proves that he is heterosexual and doesn't belong there.

Transwomen are not automatically homosexual, Following their logic they should be attending male homosexual meet-ups to meet men as the masculine half og their femininity.

Or have i got it all completely mixed up!

Totally agree with first statement and have said so repeatedly.

Of course the vast majority of transwomen are not homosexual. But those who are should be respected too, even if rare.

And yes, it is completely mixed up, and confusing, and difficult. Agreed.

Madgran77 Sun 13-Aug-23 14:35:50

Jackiest

Just the Daily Mail stiring up hatred again.

So ...are you saying lesbians have no right to state that they font want a person who gas a penis at ygeur lesbian speed dating event? Not sure its the DM stirring really ...it just might be the people with penises expecting to attend!!!! 🙄

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 14:40:06

Perhaps you have not read the full thread. I have never said any of the above, at all.

Madgran77 Sun 13-Aug-23 14:42:08

"...dont want ..." ..." has a penis at their lesbian dating event ..." !

Apologies for typos above!

Lathyrus Sun 13-Aug-23 15:09:58

Fleurpepper

Lathyrus

I genuinely don’t understand your last paragraph Fleurpepper about choosing to become female because of controlling masculine presences. They can’t think it’s going to be any better when living as a woman!

Yes, and yes.

One example I know well- grew up with mum and two older sisters, with a controlling, violent, alcoholic male. And always wanted to be like his mother and his sisters, to fight against his father's violence and control. He felt he couldn't truly be with mum and sisters, and all the other women suffering from same. And from a very young age, wanted to be with them, by becoming 'like them' and not 'like him'.

So he identified masculinity with violence, the two inseparably joined, and femininity with being love and being included?

I can understand why he would feel uncomfortable with his own masculinity in that case. And be afraid he would be a like his father when he too became a man.

So I can see he would feel more comfortable in a feminine persona. But he would still be male in all genetic respects no matter what was altered through drugs and surgery.

I hope he had counselling to come to terms with that unalterable fact that he so feared.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 15:19:20

Yes, counselling and told to wait. But said he would commit suicide if they didn't help and accept full reversal. She is beautiful, kind, gentle, intelligent- you would never, ever guess. And now married to a gentle, kind and intelligent man and 2 adopted children.

Many young men feel strongly that they want to dissociate themselves from male violence and control. I feel, personally, that reversal is not the solution- but can't see why I should empathise and respect gay men or women, and not those who fully felt totally in the wrong mind and body. I don't understand either- but feel it is not up to me to judge.

Before I was born, my dad's favourite sister committed suicide, as a gay deeply Catholic woman. And my mum's cousin, a the son of a very Bourgeois and traditional family, who could never accept he was gay. Tragic, but not any more, or any less, tragic than the suicide of a trans person who is rejected not only by family and society, but gays too.

Galaxy Sun 13-Aug-23 15:27:51

Not agreeing that people can change sex is not rejection it just means people hold different beliefs. I dont believe in God this does not mean I am rejecting religious people.

eazybee Sun 13-Aug-23 15:54:55

Members of an activists’ group reported Miss Watson to her London council employers as transphobic for insisting on social media that only ‘adult human females’ should attend and ‘lesbians don’t have penises'.

This is what bothers me. I am assume the 'Lesbian dating night ' is something Miss Watson organises in her own time, therefore nothing whatsoever to do with her London Council employers. Do these 'activist groups' have so much power over what people do and say in their leisure time, and if so, who has allowed it?

Iam64 Sun 13-Aug-23 16:19:58

Fleur pepper’s examples of boys /men wanting to be female because of their childhood experiences of toxic masculinity go to the heart of the concerns about the GID clinic at the Tavistock.
Those of us accused of being terfs/anti trans were criticised for being concerned the focus only on the desire to transition rather than a full medical, psychological, social assessment.

Dickens Sun 13-Aug-23 16:23:10

vampirequeen

Dickens

vampirequeen

I read the comment to mean that they only want transwomen who have had surgery not that a man cannot become a woman.

Do you believe a man can become a woman?

Of course. I know I am a woman and I was lucky enough to have been born into a woman's body. I can't imagine the pain someone suffers when their physical gender doesn't match their mental gender. At primary I taught a very distressed and troubled little boy. She is now a wonderful and happy young woman. She knew she wasn't a boy but didn't understand why she was different so was in a permanent state of distress and confusion.

We are not defined by our physical bodies but by our minds. Sadly things can go wrong in the womb. We accept that children can be born with all sorts of physical conditions that we correct if possible. Incorrect gender is just another physical condition that we can, if the person wants it, correct.

That little boy - after reassignment surgery - will still have XY chromosomes.

He will have changed his anatomy and, hopefully, be the happier for it, but he will not alter his biological sex. And that might become apparent in later life (or possibly not so late in life) if certain medical conditions that men are pre-disposed to, genetically, become apparent.

The little fellow was miserable because his internal sense of being did not identify with his biological sex. It was not, presumably, how he saw himself, and if he was expected - as society dictates usually - to conform to the norms of his biological sex, like most of those around him (especially at school), I can well see how he would be unhappy and troubled.

But this young woman is still biologically a man.

Whatever set of chromosomes a person has when they are born cannot be changed. This is because chromosomes are in all the cells that make up our bodies.

I doubt there will ever be the technologies that can change a chromosome in all of a person's cells - trillions of them.

There is no 'crime' in being transgender. Those of us who were lucky enough to grow up in an environment that didn't impose societal norms on its children, were, like me, probably identifying with both male and female in our formative years, without even knowing or understanding the concept of how-one-identifies. Because we - certainly me - were just allowed to be. But none of that alters the facts - men cannot biologically become women, nor women - men. They can only alter their anatomy and indulge their inner-being, and identify with... well whatever sex they want to identify with, or both - or even none.

Dickens Sun 13-Aug-23 16:28:24

Iam64

Fleur pepper’s examples of boys /men wanting to be female because of their childhood experiences of toxic masculinity go to the heart of the concerns about the GID clinic at the Tavistock.
Those of us accused of being terfs/anti trans were criticised for being concerned the focus only on the desire to transition rather than a full medical, psychological, social assessment.

Excellent point.

Fleurpepper Sun 13-Aug-23 16:52:58

Galaxy

Not agreeing that people can change sex is not rejection it just means people hold different beliefs. I dont believe in God this does not mean I am rejecting religious people.

Not rejection, but what about respect and tolerance?

I ahve witnesses one of my trans friends, who had full reversal later in life, so has features that many recognise, be screamed at and called a 'disgusting pervert', when at a Fete when she used a toilet for women. She has long hair, was wearing a bit of make up, heels and a dress. Everyone in the community knows here, and used to know him when he was a local administrator. No-one would dream of insulting her or show any kind of discrimination towards her. But our guest was massively and very embarrassingly rude and unkind to her, and I was shocked.

Another taught at the local school, and students and parents all were told that Mr X would return in the new year as Mrs Y. We were expecting trouble- but no, fully accepted by both parents and students and it all went very well.

Why give respect and tolerance to gays, but not to fully trans who have made a very clear and public choice? Irrespective of their genetic make-up. Name and papers officially changed, all above board.

Lathyrus Sun 13-Aug-23 17:05:41

I suppose one could equally write “Why not give respect to lesbians who have made a very clear choice.”

I’m sure if the trans community would do that they would find it was reciprocated. But this is the heart of the problem. The terrible lack of respect shown by transwomen in particular for any one other than themselves.

I’m sure many trans people are respectful but increasingly many are not just lacking in respect, but are vindictive and actively oppressive.