Gender stuff gone mad ....

Doodledog

I can't help thinking that the cognitive dissonance required to say that so-called 'gender' is optional, and to teach children about 100 genders (or whatever it is) must be suffered by politicians as well as educators.

I just can't believe that intelligent people can actually believe that you can change sex, or that you are 'assigned' a sex at birth rather than being born male or female, yet they are falling over themselves to not only claim to believe it, but to tell others that we should believe it too, on pain of sanctions.

I do understand that if your job is at risk if you argue with the ideology you (generic) might grit your teeth and go along with it rather than be ostracised - people have to pay the bills. But the unions have bought into this too, and lecturing staff can't expect support from UCU if they are penalised for honesty. I assume the same is true of teachers and their unions. Politicians have come out with the most ridiculous statements, such as men can have cervixes and that 'what is a woman?' is a complex question. I don't believe that functioning adult men can believe this. They have wives and daughters, for heavens' sake. The women going along with it make me actually despair.

I agree that it is difficult to grasp how they can live with seeing the results of this nonsense - children suffering MH trauma, detransitioning young adults, desperate parents, and colleagues being persecuted for saying that the emperor has no clothes. That is a terrible example to set - and it is worse when set by people whose role it is to be trusted to decide on rules (or laws in the case of politicians) and to explain the reasons for them to others.

What can be done about it? Politicians should have the courage of their convictions, and should be legally protected from persecution on conscientious grounds. It is, arguably, more difficult for teaching staff, as schools are discrete institutions which need consistency to be fair to pupils. Heads should take personal responsibility, and IMO there should be a compulsory policy statement issued to parents (as with anti-bullying policies) who can then decide whether to send their children to schools where they will be taught belief over science and risk having their own views rubbished by people parroting 'guidelines' issued by pressure groups such as Stonewall. Teaching staff could also decide whether they want to work under the cosh of trans ideology before accepting a job. That wouldn't solve the whole problem, but would be a step in the right direction, I think.

I endorse everything you have said.

In "The Temper of Our Time" (1967), social and moral philosopher Eric Hoffer wrote:

What starts out here as a mass movement ends up as a racket, a cult, or a corporation.’ It is an observation that fits the decline of Stonewall. Three decades ago, it represented a vital, relevant movement, battling a hostile establishment from the margins.

Today Stonewall is the hostile establishment. Embedded across the UK’s institutions, it has been using its power, in the name of trans rights, to silence the very lesbian, gay and bisexual people who once were its supporters.

Stonewall’s is a cautionary tale – it shows how even the most worthy of causes can be corrupted in the quest for power and influence.

Is that "power and influence" for its own benefit - or has it been hijacked by other - malign - forces for reasons which are not clear yet?

That's the limit of my 'conspiracy' theory. And the only reason I can even contemplate a 'conspiracy' is because I find it almost inexplicable that reasonable, intelligent and rational human beings, male and female, among them those who've studied biology, science, etc, can so readily subscribe to the belief that a man with a penis can become a woman simply because he said so - that they can't differentiate between an organism's biological sex, and the cultural and inner awareness of gender identity.

And when those activists shove their cardboard placards in people's faces publicly, so that everyone can see the messages... "I punch TERFS", "de-capitate TERFS", "suck on my girl-dick, bitch", and these men and women remain quiet, and still go along with this "inclusivity" rhetoric - well, you have to either question their sanity / indifference / stupidity / or believe there's a conspiracy going on.

I’m another who no longer subscribes to the guardian

maddyone

I no longer teach so I don’t really know what is happening in schools, but I know what is being reported as happening in schools and if it’s as reported, I find it very worrying and I wonder how this ideology has got such a foothold in our schools. Is our Education Dept asleep on the job? Or taken over by loons? Why aren’t parents being heard?

You ask how?
One word: Stonewall.

I was late coming to this thread and was dismayed by the first few posts which were along the lines of us on GN being oldies who just have to get used to the new, up to date ideas.
I was so relieved to then see a post from Doodledog talking sense.

People will still say such things as a course of action is recommended by Stonewall - they have been used to seeing Stonewall as an authority, showing them the way, and they haven't grasped what has changed.

Is that "power and influence" for its own benefit - or has it been hijacked by other - malign - forces for reasons which are not clear yet?

I think it's both.

Transwoman Christine Burns' book 'Trans Britain - Our Journey from the Shadows' shows how individuals in the UK have been working away for decades.
Stonewall, in need of a further cause, then used their finances and reputation to promote the idea of gender identity.

I'm not well-informed about things like the Yogyakarta Principles and WPATH but it seems to me there must be powerful, rich people who pushed their own ideas.
Jennifer Bilek is one person who has researched this.

Recently, a few people have reasoned that autogynephile men who get sexually aroused by the thought of themselves as women have wanted to play for sympathy by claiming that they are actually unhappy souls who were born in the wrong body and who knew this from a young age.
For that to be true there have to be 'trans children' now, hence the huge efforts to suggest this to children in numerous ways.

Stonewall, in need of a further cause, then used their finances and reputation to promote the idea of gender identity.

I mean Stonewall's finances & reputation, not the individuals'.

FarNorth

I was late coming to this thread and was dismayed by the first few posts which were along the lines of us on GN being oldies who just have to get used to the new, up to date ideas.
I was so relieved to then see a post from Doodledog talking sense.

Doodledog is the voice of reason.

As for us "oldies" - well, cultural and societal changes are ongoing - we were part of them back in the day, we do understand them. We also have the benefit of hindsight - we know how things were, how some things are better for the changes that we've seen, and the acknowledgement of same-sex attraction was one of the best changes.

But we don't have to accept without critical examination all changes that are taking place, or foisted on us and I hope we've still got those critical thinking skills that made us, in 'our day', part of the movement for change!

Perhaps the worst aspect of the Stonewall agenda is it's attempt to close down any debate. In a democracy surely you cannot censor people to that extent? And, if they believe they can, they must expect a backlash from those who believe in the principle of free speech - within the Law. Which might well be the reason they're attempting to change it.

I hope they don't start this pronoun nonsense on GN.

Well ‘they’ won’t stop us from refusing to play

I don't think anonymous people can reasonably be expected to give pronouns .

The No Debate strategy (or the flounce and refusal to engage, which is the online equivalent) says it all, IMO. It shows that there is no counter argument, yet people still threaten, abuse and twist what is being said. There are no answers to the most basic of questions, so insults about being unable to keep up with changes, or being 'phobic' are all that's left, yet there are still people who seem unable to see that that's what's going on.

DD I don't think anonymous people can reasonably be expected to give pronouns.
and in the current state play, would we know if the pronouns are sexually accurate?

The No Debate strategy (or the flounce and refusal to engage, which is the online equivalent) says it all, IMO. It shows that there is no counter argument, yet people still threaten, abuse and twist what is being said. There are no answers to the most basic of questions, so insults about being unable to keep up with changes, or being 'phobic' are all that's left, yet there are still people who seem unable to see that that's what's going on.
That’s an accurate summary of what we see on here and also fairly typical of responses on X.
Except on X there are also endless posts from TW and TRA saying “ You can’t stop us.”

I had a hospital appointment last week.Today I received a copy of the letter sent by the hospital to my GP.
I was referred to throughout as ''they/them''
I am female and am not plural!

I would complain about that, if I felt up to it, PP. Obviously if you are ill you might not want to be bothered, but it's offensive and inaccurate.

I would complain too, because I also think it’s offensive and inaccurate.

The Green Party (England & Wales) could be in serious financial trouble because of legal expenses from court cases over their stance on trans ideology.

bylinetimes.com/2023/08/29/green-party-at-risk-of-going-bust-amid-trans-rights-row-legal-challenge-from-former-deputy-leader/

In general I don't wish the Greens ill, but in this case I really hope that their trans ideology bites them on the bum, as it will show that the legal system is on the side of realism and that zealots can't impose spurious ideology on the rest of us.

It would be a shame to lose a party that has done a lot of good but as they have morphed into an extremist mouthpiece for the trans lobby it is time they went. They, alongside Stonewall and Oxfam can always regroup and return to what they were formed to represent. I think if they (all) weed out the TRAs and relaunch then supporters will return. I miss the Guardian too, and wish that they would do likewise.

Basically, this means, accept that if someone says a man can be a woman if he says so, he is a woman... or run the risk of being ousted from your organisation / job.

Don't argue with it, just accept their belief, or you will be punished one way or another.

A collective dangerous madness has taken over, it seems.

A collective dangerous madness has taken over, it seems.

That has been the case for years now, but cases like this, or those of Forstater and Bailey, or the shifting position of the Labour Party suggest that sanity is returning. Many organisations have rejected Stonewall too, which is a huge (if under-reported) step.

It's the second time the greens have fallen foul of this, the first was a catastrophe, I feel that smaller parties are particularly vulnerable to it.

👏👏👏 Doodledog and Dickens
There are glimmers of hope that sanity will eventually prevail, and this forced compliance with an ideology will wither. Why can’t it be seen that anybody can believe exactly what they want, but compelling me to believe and say I do too is abusing my human rights?
Many organisations are leaving Stonewall and that is encouraging but unfortunately some of the employees are still very captured and can still influence policy. Too many people, understandably, keep their thoughts to themselves and their heads down out of outright fear of the repercussions from stating simple truths. Kudos to those who are prepared to risk
the wrath of the trans lobby.

Rosie51

👏👏👏 Doodledog and Dickens
There are glimmers of hope that sanity will eventually prevail, and this forced compliance with an ideology will wither. Why can’t it be seen that anybody can believe exactly what they want, but compelling me to believe and say I do too is abusing my human rights?
Many organisations are leaving Stonewall and that is encouraging but unfortunately some of the employees are still very captured and can still influence policy. Too many people, understandably, keep their thoughts to themselves and their heads down out of outright fear of the repercussions from stating simple truths. Kudos to those who are prepared to risk
the wrath of the trans lobby.

Well said.
So much sense from Doodledog, Dickens et al that I can’t really say more.
A point of interest for me is that a Green Party councillor I taught when he was in KS1 announced that he was standing down from the GP because of their stance on this issue. He was one of the brighter children in his year.

Good for him, Molly. Maybe he will be part of the next incarnation of ecology-conscious politicians.

It doesn't make sense to me to assume that people wanting the environment to be considered when making policy should also believe that sex can be changed. If anything, those with an understanding of the science behind climate change are more, rather than less likely to understand that sex is immutable.

That's one of the biggest mysteries isn't it? The climate change agenda is backed by science and people are happy to quote acknowledged experts, but when it comes to biology an expert like Sir Robert Winston, with a lifetime of experience, doesn't know what he's talking about? Instead they go to pseudoscience papers, articles which have never been peer reviewed, or "personalities" and are blindly galloping into fantasy land.

It all makes me despair. I think of Hitler and his aims - and how people did not dare to argue with him.

We are in a similar boat when it comes to gender. This insidious nonsense has crept into every corner of our lives, and organisations and companies feel they have to keep up by jumping on this latest bandwagon.

TBH I did not feel entirely happy when the whole issue of being gay became so very strident and in-your-face. I am happy for people to love whom they love and to do whatever they want with their genitals with whomever they want, provided no-one is hurt or exploited. But I find all the flag-waving a bit OTT. I don't join "straight marches" - basically because there are none. People are just people, and love is in short supply, so let people love whom they wish. Life is not just about sexuality - it is not the whole of a person's identity.

And the gender debate has created its own bandwagon and strident demands - and organisations do not have the courage to say no to being a vehicle for these ideas.

Of course it is important that someone who is unhappy in their body has the chance to explore this with the proper professionals, who approach it with an open mind. There is no need at all for every person to toe a particular line. This is how minds are closed, and it becomes more difficult for those in need of help to find someone who can look at who they are and what their needs are, without looking over their shoulder to see if they might get the sack. That helps no-one.

And caught in the middle of this are the vulnerable young people, searching, as all young people do, to decide who they are. Their vulnerability and confusion is being exploited and manipulated by all that they hear around them. I feel sorry for them and for the teachers who have to navigate this minefield with the threat of consequences if they do not toe the line, even though they might be trying to simply help one individual with a bit more subtlety than a sledgehammer.

My DGS/D is caught up in all this in ways that are massively detrimental. The peace and privacy to explore their identity is denied them. The confusion of autism and physical health problems has become focussed on gender as the answer to every prayer. A peg to hang the uncertainties on. It makes me very sad to see someone I love caught up in this turmoil and manipulated by the media.