Calling Someond A Racist

“I don’t like Lawrence Fox” and I understand therefore that people cannot decouple their personal feelings and how such people become persona non grata. Whatever who said what still had the effect of him losing a successful career. I guess he became an actor because he was raised in a family of famous people already in the profession. The idea that personal animosity can lead to undesirable outcomes is demonstrated here. It also happened with Nigel Farage, who many people hate for his political beliefs. People could not decouple their hatred of him to regard his treatment by Coutts bank as anything of interest to them. Some on the left defended the action of the bank.Only when ordinary people came forward to report the same treatment that the general public realised they your bank could kick you out because of your political beliefs. We later learned that mass killers in prison were allowed an account but not some people like the elderly Vicar in Yorkshire who complained about the sheer number of Pride flags Yorkshire Building Society emblazoned on their premises.

The woman at the head of NatWest who leaked confidential information had to resign. She was handed out over £1 million of our money to ease her way. This was not acceptable but nothing was done. There’s nowt so queer as folk!

I think a lot of people who despise Farage for his views have sympathised with him over the banking thing. I'm not sure what point you are making about his views though - what else can people use to form an opinion of him? During the Brexit campaign his views were rammed down our throats enough, but otherwise what is there to know?

As for Fox - the 'who said what' is 100% of the point . On QT he exposed his views for what they are, and then went on to form a risible political party that he thought would rally like-minded people to his cause - it didn't, thank goodness - which left people in no doubt. Again, unless we know him personally, we only have his views to go on, whether as the sexist creature he was on Gogglebox or as a Far Right political wannabe. That's why he's become persona non grata, and that's why people don't like him. If his acting career has suffered, it is because people will never take him seriously as a decent person with moderate views, whatever part he is playing.

Doodledog, I take your points which are well made. I think my unease is really that socially, in recent times, people’s political views or beliefs are not well tolerated particularly by those who are more left wing than the majority of the population. I am a Conservative who has never voted Labour although I regard the Lib Dem party good at looking after my local area of London and I have mainly voted for them. I think British society is more divided politically than I have never known before. There is no doubt that the Conservatives need to regroup and get themselves together. Re the latest concrete problems in public buildings. All blame has descended on the Tories because of spending cuts but I find myself wondering if any shoddy buildings went up in the times of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, The press does not tell us. I also wonder about Civil Service incompetence and hope that Sir Keir gets a handle on that. I forget who said it but “We live in interesting times” What else can go wrong?

In what specific ways do you consider the civil service incompetent?

PS. I really hate the modern trend to call anybody names (racist, incompetent etc) without rational justification - it smacks of a primary school playground, which I naively hoped adults would have outgrown.

I agree . We are more divided than I can ever remember and I have been around a long time. Labels do not help in any way, they just make people angry and hurt , especially if they are unjustified and thrown around to make someone who has being doing something wrong feel righteous. There is no longer any such thing as freedom to express views ( and I am not talking about extreme right wing or left wing ones, just normal stuff) Places like China are rightly condemned for oppression but the rest of us heading down the same path without so much as a backward glance.

Life is simple in bluebell woods if someone is sprouting racist comments they are racist and I would tell them so I wouldn’t normally put it in terms of you are a racist but say that is a racist statement or why do you use such racist terms
However I don’t think the woman was wrong in her summing up of Fox

Annie1 "May you live in interesting times" is, I believe, a Chinese curse.

Annie’s, you appear to be singling out ‘those who are more left wing than the majority of the population’, as responsible for our divided society.
This thread demonstrates it isn’t only left leaning posters who find Laurence Fox ‘s views offensive. Doodledog set out clearly the exchange on QT which showed Fox to be a man with racist views.

We have a government which is, IMO, hopeless. I won't list their failures, as they are clearly set out on other threads, and I'd rather avoid the whataboutery that would inevitably ensue if I did, as it is not the point of either this post or this thread.

I have never in my life voted Tory, and Hell mend me if I ever do. It is, therefore frustrating to me that for most of my life there have been Conservative governments doing things that I see as reprehensible.

Do I resent Tory voters? No, I don't, as I believe in democracy, inasmuch as we have it in the UK. I absolutely believe in the right to vote as we see fit, and don't think that there should be a 'Doodledog test' of whether people's choices are acceptable or not . I have friends who vote Tory, and we manage to rub along. But I do resent what has happened to the UK, and I blame the Tories for dividing the country, for polarising rich and poor and young and old, for wrecking the life chances of many - basically for ensuring that there is now 'no such thing as society'. I resent that a lot.

The Tories 'got Brexit done' (which is also, IMO detrimental to the UK) by playing on voters' racism and fear of immigration. They are using 'small boats' as a political football, which is more of the same. Is being anti-immigration racist? Not necessarily, but it's hard not to see the language, the way the Tory campaigns pander to simplistic views of 'coming over here' and the differentiation between immigrants from different places as being so.

Whereas I can get along with people who vote Tory, it is beyond me why people who were banging saucepans during Covid 'for the NHS' could then vote them in knowing that they would ruin it. Similarly, people who give to food banks voting them in knowing that they would cut benefits and force more people into poverty. And so on. It screams cognitive dissonance (or turning a blind eye to naked self-interest) to me.

Socially it is relatively easy to separate the person from the political, but when talking in more general terms (eg commenting on here) it is 'shorthand' to conflate them, and I don't think that is unreasonable. We all know what we are voting for, and whereas of course there have been mistakes (and worse) made by Labour governments - and let's not mention the betrayals of the LDs in coalition - we should take responsibility for that.

The short answer is that I don't think that all Tory voters are racist or uncaring or anti-NHS etc - of course they aren't - but I do think that they are aware (or should be) of the consequences of their votes, which do enable racism and the other things I mentioned, and not be too shocked when people assume that they voted with their eyes wide open.

Annie1
also wonder about Civil Service incompetence and hope that Sir Keir gets a handle on that.

In which ways are the Civil Service incompetent, please, Annie1?
And what do you think Sir Keir would do to get a handle on what you think is wrong with the Civil Setvice?

Racism isn't the preserve of the right, sadly it is present across all sections of society, however, I believe the LP will not stoop to giving oxygen to those views, whereas I feel the present Conservative Govt does and is currently using racism to try to gain votes. Shame on them! People like LF need to be challenged when they behave as he did or their words legitimise racism to those who think the same. If you think LF (a white privileged male) can be subjected to racism in this country (which is what he claimed!) you clearly need to do a bit of research.

Good post, foxie.

*Foxie48 ,
If you think LF (a white privileged male) can be subjected to racism in this country (which is what he claimed!) you clearly need to do a bit of research.*

When my daughter’s partner (a white privileged male) tried to reprimand his Asian staff for skiving and not keeping her hours, she went straight to HR and accused him of being a racist.

He was under investigation by HR for 2 years and subsequently cleared of the racist complaint. He was so distressed by the accusation that he left his post.

The irony is my daughter is mixed race and I am Asian.

That doesn't sound like racism, so much as false accusation, though. If he had accused her of not pulling her weight because of her race, obviously that would be different. Why did HR take 2 years to investigate what seems on the face of it to be a 'he said/she said' situation? That seems very odd.

SporeRB

*Foxie48 ,
If you think LF (a white privileged male) can be subjected to racism in this country (which is what he claimed!) you clearly need to do a bit of research.*

When my daughter’s partner (a white privileged male) tried to reprimand his Asian staff for skiving and not keeping her hours, she went straight to HR and accused him of being a racist.

He was under investigation by HR for 2 years and subsequently cleared of the racist complaint. He was so distressed by the accusation that he left his post.

The irony is my daughter is mixed race and I am Asian.

Not racism, it sounds as if they might have had a rubbish HR dept though. tbh I don't see where irony comes into this, having an Asian MIL and a mixed race partner does not make any difference whatsoever. A man married to a woman can still be a misogynist. It's not unknown for someone to "play the race card" though but without knowing the situation in detail, I really can't comment. There is so much misunderstanding about what is racism fortunately there's lots of information from reliable sources on the internet that will help anyone who wants to improve their knowledge.

Re the civil service. Recently it was reported that the majority of those employed in the Home Office work from home. If you are deciding on the future of a would be legal member of society, then surely there would have to be discussion and clarification to get the job done fairly and much more quickly. It is ridiculous that people may wait years for a decision. Again, we have reports of some civil servants bringing their politics into their working life. I certainly encountered that behaviour in the Council Housing. Dept where I managed a team. I may be old fashioned but surely the job of being a senior civil servant is to support the Minister of the department. From all I read about the Home Office it seems not to work well. I look forward to Sir Keir taking office as he was the Director of Public Prosecutions so he knows all about public service.
I am glad some of you can be friends with Conservative voters. My parents and friends were/ are mainly Labour Party supporters and members and one of my neighbours was our Labour MP Tulip Siddiq. She had to move as our Constituency is now heavily Conservative. She is a lovely woman and we still write to her with queries. I feel no animosity at all to Labour supporters, although I was surprised to discover that the majority of Grans on the board are well read socialists or Labour voters. I guess I write because the Tories need a voice, even if cannot find much to talk about positively. We are in a very difficult situation.

I don't understand. If you can't find much positive to say about Tory policy, and feel that you are in a 'very difficult' situation, why are you defending the Tories? You can vote for whomever you like - being a Tory is not a congenital condition, you know?

Anniel

Doodledog, I take your points which are well made. I think my unease is really that socially, in recent times, people’s political views or beliefs are not well tolerated particularly by those who are more left wing than the majority of the population. I am a Conservative who has never voted Labour although I regard the Lib Dem party good at looking after my local area of London and I have mainly voted for them. I think British society is more divided politically than I have never known before. There is no doubt that the Conservatives need to regroup and get themselves together. Re the latest concrete problems in public buildings. All blame has descended on the Tories because of spending cuts but I find myself wondering if any shoddy buildings went up in the times of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown, The press does not tell us. I also wonder about Civil Service incompetence and hope that Sir Keir gets a handle on that. I forget who said it but “We live in interesting times” What else can go wrong?

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Anything that can go wrong usually does go wrong tho 😁

Annie1 there are those who can’t bear to be friends with anyone who holds opposing views to their own, on politics or anything else.I think I should maybe feel sorry for them but mainly think of them as idiots.

Oreo

Annie1 there are those who can’t bear to be friends with anyone who holds opposing views to their own, on politics or anything else.I think I should maybe feel sorry for them but mainly think of them as idiots.

I think that a lack of tolerance (including thinking of others as idiots!) has been fostered by the Tories. They have deliberately turned young against old, for instance, rich against poor, and poor against poorer (and vice versa in each case). It's very easy to create resentment amongst people who have little by telling them that their plight is the fault of those who have even less.

Similarly, Gove's talk about people being fed up with 'experts' (which he had to drop like a stone when we needed experts to persuade us to lock down) created animosity between people who came to resent 'elites', and reverse the ambition to get at least 50% of young people places at university. If 'experts' are to be despised, people are more likely to agree that children don't need an education, even though it usually other people's children who 'aren't right for university'). This sort of thing, and the way immigration was used to blame refugees for the lack of investment in the welfare state created the environment that led to Brexit, which has fed into the cost of living crisis, and caused more division than anything I've seen in my lifetime.

We are, as what used to be a society, much more divided than ever. Also, social media means that people talk about their beliefs more than they used to when politics weren't considered a suitable topic for polite conversation. Now people sit behind keyboards and write others off as 'idiots', 'Boomers', 'TERFs', 'Remoaners' and so on, and don't bother to listen to them. We see it on here all the time - differences of opinion quickly get nasty, even when they are about celebrities or the RF, who have no impact on the lives of anyone on here.

When there was a safety net - decent benefits, council houses, an NHS that delivered a GP appointment when you wanted it and operations when you needed them and so on, people weren't so scared of falling through the holes, and were more tolerant of others in some ways. In others, such as racism, sexism and homophobia, however, we have come a long way, so up to a point it is swings and roundabouts, I suppose.

Doodledog

Laurence Fox has some highly questionable views. The 'female' in the audience said that Meghan Markle had been treated badly because of her race, and LF said that it was racist of her to refer to him as a 'white, privileged male', entirely missing the point of what racism actually means. In fact, it was LF who called the woman (can we stop calling her a 'female', please?) a racist, not the other way round.

Having said that, words like 'racist', 'bigot' and so on can describe behaviours, but when they are used to define an individual they become subjective and potentially offensive. It's similar to the difference between saying someone is 'crippled' and calling them 'a cripple', or referring to a 'person of colour' (emphasis on 'person') and to a 'coloured person' (emphasis on colour).

Thanks for that. There’s nearly always more to a story.

Doodledog
That’s my view, that those who say they can’t be friends with anyone who votes a different way to themselves, or has a different view on any other subject is idiotic.
I have friends who vote all ways and none and we’ve been real good friends for nearly 30 years now.
That’s tolerance!

Yes, I realised that was what you meant, but you are still saying that the people are idiots for having a different opinion from yours . I share your approach (ie having friends of all political shades), but I respect the right of others to differ and prefer not to, provided they can explain why they hold a differing view.

I lose patience when people say things like 'it's just my opinion' or refuse to explain their perspective though (and I'm speaking generally, not about you, Oreo . Fine if they want to keep opinions to themselves, but when people bang on about something so we all have to listen to them, but then hide behind 'I just think that and have a right to my opinion' it's different. That's the problem we are talking about, I think. Too many people don't debate or discuss - they just shout, or write off anyone who disagrees with them by calling them names. It's lazy and reductive, and doesn't move discussion on at all.

I think that social media helps with that, as people are largely anonymous, but don't think that SM are responsible - it's the users not the channels who are to blame. SM offers a chance for people with differing views to explain their opinions and reach understanding if not agreement, but too often that doesn't happen, as people don't treat others with respect.

lyleLylle Please will you provide a precise and detailed definition of what a racist is.

You will not be able to do because being a racist is an entirely subjective judgement made by an individual, often deliberately so as to harm the life of another person.

You can call someone homophobic, misogynistic, sexist etc etc, and people around them will take no notice of the accusation, it is thrown around in all kinds of arguments, ncluding on GN.

But call someone a racist and that person is cast out of all society, if that [erson is in the public eye then that is their career and ability to earn their living destroyed as totally as if they were a convicted paedophile.

Society as a whole, always seems to need a group it can turn upon and blame for all societites ills, it used to be the lepers, then the Irish, then anyone of any colour that was not European. Now it the 'racists', which is best defined as anybody those who feel they are the moral leaders of society think are racists. It works a bit like the Spanish Inquisition, no matter how much you protest and can prove your innocence. Once the moral leaders of society decide you are guilty, thats you on toast.

It makes religion looks positively benign, because most religions in principle extol the reformed sinner - Where would St Paul be in this morally superior world?

Doodledog you have either misunderstood or are misrepresenting my posts.
I am not saying that people are idiots for having different opinions but that they are idiots if they allow political views to interfere with friendships.Having good friends is far more important than who votes for what.In my opinion.
There isn’t anything more to debate or discuss.😄
You did realise what I meant so are just nit picking.
Your choice and your opinion.