Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

So I'm wrong because I post links to judgements by various bodies, which you all seem prepared to ignore in favour of your own prejudices.
You call transwomen men
You call an intersex woman a man.
Honestly it is pure prejudice.
There is more information about the subject here theconversation.com/ten-ethical-flaws-in-the-caster-semenya-decision-on-intersex-in-sport-116448
But I don't expect you to read it. Your minds are closed.

I've just worked out what that thudding sound is - it's the noise of heads banging against a brick wall.

I dont judge. I dont think it's wrong to be a man. My views have no influence on biological reality.

Glorianny
^ Most of the judgements are made without considering any one else's views but your own.^
Another excellent own goal from G!🤣🤣🤣

Glorianny^The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men.^ Sex is immutable. Sports are performed by sexed bodies, are you incapable of understanding that? Fairness dictates that people of the same sex compete against each other, otherwise why only allow certain privileged males to enter, why not any of them who'd like to? You'll destroy female sport but then maybe that's not a concern with you.
criteria set as always by men when you use men here do you mean biological males or some other category, it gets so confusing when these words have no definitive meaning?

Careful, Rosie. I asked that some time ago and was told the comment was worthy of the KKK.

The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men.
Again, this is coming from you, not from anyone else on this thread. I am perfectly happy to celebrate diversity. I repeat (how many times do I have to do it?) that what I do not celebrate is the right of males to have their needs/wants put above those of women, in this case women who have trained and worked for years to achieve their success, only to have it downgraded when someone with a male body is allowed to compete against them and win.

Glorianny Nor do I post inferences about the fact that her wife has given birth to two children.
What gives you the right to decide CS is not a woman when so many have judged she is?

I made no implications about the fact Caster Semenya's wife has given birth to two children. That you inferred something from my saying Caster has a happy family life is down to your own thoughts. The same sex couple remark from you was so Glorianny....do you not realise that most of us will either have friends or family in same sex relationships, many of whom have the joy of children too?
For years sex and gender were interchangeable, both meaning biological sex. For some reason 'gender' was considered 'nicer'. Caster may refer to themself as a woman, but nothing makes a biological male a biological female. Sports are performed by biological bodies, not internal feelings, so Caster should compete in the correct sex class which is male. Will you address the point about Caster having benefitted from a male puberty that cannot be undone, or are you just going to keep ignoring facts to further your disregard for the biological women who have been denied their rightful success? Why do you think it's OK for them to have been denied the success their hard work should have earned them?

Doodledog

Gender has nothing to do with the right to compete in a sex class. Are you confusing sex and gender again?

On what grounds was CS 'judged a woman', and by whom? Because of her declared gender? Fair enough when it comes to day to day life, but not when it comes to competitive sport.

The deliberate conflation of sex and gender is responsible for so many of the communication problems surrounding this issue, which is, of course, (a) why it was started and (b) why it is so important to ensure that the language is not mangled further so that it is not possible to talk about women as a separate class from men/the male bodied/transpeople.

She was judged a woman by every test imposed by the regulating authority including genital inspection. She was only stopped from competing because she refused to take medication which she tried but found had unacceptable side effects. Other women athletes have been forced to have surgery.
foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/18/women-athletes-subjected-to-sex-testing-are-faced-with-impossible-choices-caster-semenya-world-athletics/
The diversity of women is something which should be celebrated. They should not be forced to comply to a set of preordained criteria set as always by men.

Gender has nothing to do with the right to compete in a sex class. Are you confusing sex and gender again?

On what grounds was CS 'judged a woman', and by whom? Because of her declared gender? Fair enough when it comes to day to day life, but not when it comes to competitive sport.

The deliberate conflation of sex and gender is responsible for so many of the communication problems surrounding this issue, which is, of course, (a) why it was started and (b) why it is so important to ensure that the language is not mangled further so that it is not possible to talk about women as a separate class from men/the male bodied/transpeople.

Rosie51

Glorianny I accept that not having a scientific background may be influencing your lack of knowledge about the effects of testosterone. During puberty people with functioning testes ie males produce increased levels of testosterone. This prompts the growth of longer denser bones, an increase in heart size and lung capacity. Muscle mass also responds to this increased level, which is why on average men are taller, stronger, faster and a different body shape to females. People with a dsd that includes functioning internal testes, even though their external genitalia may be ambiguous leading in olden times to being wrongly sexed, will go through male puberty with all its permanent advantages. Lowering testosterone levels in male bodies does not convert them into female bodies that have not benefitted from a male puberty.
Incidentally the ECHR decision was 4 for 3 against so hardly a resounding agreement, and in fact the decision is likely to be referred higher up to the ECHR grand chamber for a final and definitive decision. If you care to research the DSD Caster Semenya (which I detailed earlier) has you will have to agree it's one that only affects males. Perhaps you'd believe Lord Robert Winston, you surely don't believe your knowledge outweighs his on the subject of biology? Nobody can change sex it's absolutely immutable.

No but nor do I make myself judge and jury over the gender of someone who has always and still does identify as a woman. Who passed numerous tests which were intrusive and demeaning and would have been permitted to compete had she agreed to accept medical intervention.
Nor do I post inferences about the fact that her wife has given birth to two children.
What gives you the right to decide CS is not a woman when so many have judged she is?
That's the problem with all these posts. Most of the judgements are made without considering any one else's views but your own. I don't think Lord Robert Winston has ever posted an opinion about Caster Semenya although many have examined her and judged her a woman.

Glorianny I accept that not having a scientific background may be influencing your lack of knowledge about the effects of testosterone. During puberty people with functioning testes ie males produce increased levels of testosterone. This prompts the growth of longer denser bones, an increase in heart size and lung capacity. Muscle mass also responds to this increased level, which is why on average men are taller, stronger, faster and a different body shape to females. People with a dsd that includes functioning internal testes, even though their external genitalia may be ambiguous leading in olden times to being wrongly sexed, will go through male puberty with all its permanent advantages. Lowering testosterone levels in male bodies does not convert them into female bodies that have not benefitted from a male puberty.
Incidentally the ECHR decision was 4 for 3 against so hardly a resounding agreement, and in fact the decision is likely to be referred higher up to the ECHR grand chamber for a final and definitive decision. If you care to research the DSD Caster Semenya (which I detailed earlier) has you will have to agree it's one that only affects males. Perhaps you'd believe Lord Robert Winston, you surely don't believe your knowledge outweighs his on the subject of biology? Nobody can change sex it's absolutely immutable.

Always your cry of. she is the wrong sort of woman
You are the only one Glorianny who persistently mentions the wrong sort of women.
A woman is an adult human female. Where have you seen people post that an AHF is the wrong sort of woman.
Transwomen are exactly what it says-transwomen. They can’t be the wrong sort of woman because they are not AHF.

Many same sex couples have children and happy family lives.

Where has that been denied? Evidence?

And since you seem to have missed it , deliberately (as in your cry of “I don’t read your posts”) or accidentally 🤣🤣

I’ll remind you.

Re same sex couples?
Same sex couples are two people who want relationships with people of the same sex.
Male with male.
Female with female.
TW with TW or TM with TM can be same sex couples in the same way.
Anything else is heterosexual.

If a couple, same sex or heterosexual, are happy with whichever combination they are living in, no issue.

If one half is demanding to be accepted as the having changed sex as in the case of TW claiming they are lesbian and saying that lesbians who do not accept them as such are transphobic that is wrong.

They are certainly the ones peddling hatred. Though it’s hatred of females, not trans.

Although maybe you don’t think so Glorianny?

It was detailed in the press release from the CAS arbitration on the case. I would have to look up the date.

When you go through Male puberty it impacts on strength muscle mass etc. There are numerous studies showing this, you are free to look them up. Either we need to segregate by sex or we dont. We cant possibly segregate on a range of stereotypes.
There have been numerous rulings with regard to males in females sports which were manifestly unfair this did not stop the sporting bodies making those rulings. As you point out yourself there have been numerous rulings within sport that have negatively impacted biological females.

Galaxy

Oh and natural testerone impacts everything from muscle mass to strength. We segregate sport by sex on the whole and most sporting bodies are returning to that. Mostly out of fear of litigation I would assume.

Another mistake. The only research done on natural testosterone and sports found that levels in male and female athletes tended to overlap with some women having high levels and some men low levels.
. testosterone values show a complete overlap between men and women although the mean values differ. There were 74 of 446 (16Á5%) men with a serum testosterone below 8Á4 nmol/l, the lower limit of the normal reference range. 6 There were 32 of 234 (13Á7%) women with a testosterone level > 2Á7 nmol/l, the upper limit of the normal reference range 6 (Fig. 1). There is no significant difference in either LH or FSH between those with low or normal testosterone levels. There was only one athlete with a raised testosterone (9Á6 nmol/l) who had a suppressed LH (0Á1 U/l), indicating the possibility of misuse of testosterone; all other values of LH in those with raised testosterone were within

Galaxy

Sorry everyone knows the condition CS has is only experienced by Males. This was not in the public arena for a long time but then was detailed in one of the rulings as far as I can remember.

Would you like to find a link to that because it is manifestly untrue or the EU court ruling could not and would not apply.

Oh and natural testerone impacts everything from muscle mass to strength. We segregate sport by sex on the whole and most sporting bodies are returning to that. Mostly out of fear of litigation I would assume.

Sorry everyone knows the condition CS has is only experienced by Males. This was not in the public arena for a long time but then was detailed in one of the rulings as far as I can remember.

Let's be correct. CS competed as a woman, was permitted to continue competing as a woman after having a genital inspection and would still be competing as a woman had she agreed to take medication to reduce her testosterone levels. The judgement by the European court was given to her as a woman. The only place I have ever seen her referred to as a man is on GN.

Which as I said indicates levels of discrimination which are unacceptable.

I have no idea why sports bodies use the tests they do Rosie51.But as far as CS goes they have never judged her as male. They ruled on her testosterone level and required her to reduce it. In spite of the fact that the medication made her ill and with absolutely no scientific evidence that natural testosterone gives any advantage. No one has ever designated her as male. Apart from you.

Posting that hatred is being peddled on this thread is a vague and generalised attack on anyone who disagrees with you Glorianny and is another example of the weakness of your argument.

One of the reasons for my concerns about the gender issue is the homophobia intrinsic in ignoring the reality of sex.

Thank you Rosie51 for your information on CS and about the ease of determining sex with a simple mouth swab.
What a disappointment for the person on here who has been using CS as proof. Someone who is really guilty of peddling hatred, if any poster on GN actually is.
Re same sex couples?
Same sex couples are two people who want relationships with people of the same sex.
Male with male. Female with female.
TW with TW or TM with TM can be same sex couples in the same way. Anything else is heterosexual.
If a couple are happy with whichever combination they are living in, no issue.
If one half is demanding to be accepted as the opposite sex as in the case of TW claiming they are lesbian and saying that lesbians who do not accept them as such are transphobic that is wrong.
Although maybe you don’t think so Glorianny?

What have same sex couples got to do with it, or is this another passive aggressive insinuation?

It is ad hominem personal attacks like these that cause so much unpleasantness on these threads, and the usual MO is to goad people into snapping at the sheer injustice of your comments and then claim to be bullied and wallow in your 'victimhood'. You do realise that not naming the objects of your slurs does not mean that you are not making personal remarks and therefore breaking the GN rules? An insinuated comment is as personal as if you are more assertive and say what you mean.

I am not, (and as far as I can see no regular poster on these threads is) racist, sexist, homophobic or transphobic, and your attempts to suggest that questioning the wisdom of allowing men into women's spaces, mangling the language so we don't know if we are talking about women or transwomen, encouraging children to damage their minds and bodies and closing down women's sport indicates otherwise do not advance your cause at all. I am not speaking from a point of view of fear, hatred or any of the things you pretend. I have explained over and over what I question and why I question it, and am safe in the knowledge that the only phobia I have is of spiders. I have no objection to transpeople, and believe that because as far as we know we have one life, we should live it in the way that makes us happy. My objections, such as they are, are about how in many cases transpeople's right to live as they wish tramples over women's rights to live in safety and with the privacy and dignity that we have fought for for years.

The reason I dont support the concept of gender is that I dont support stereotypes. If you were telling me off for not adhering to racist stereotypes it would have the same impact. I.e none.

We know the details of CS we have known for years.
We know that ruling there have been numerous rulings over the years.