Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Well sorry if it isn't hatred which causes people to misgender someone what is it? Fear perhaps.

Caster Semenya brought her case to the European court as a woman and she was judged as a woman. Her case is a landmark decision for intersex people. You can read about it here opiniojuris.org/2023/08/04/the-european-court-of-human-rights-in-the-caster-semenya-case-opening-a-new-door-for-protecting-the-rights-of-persons-with-variations-of-sex-characteristics-and-human-rights-in-sports/#:~:text=The%20ECtHR%20upheld%20several%20of,right%20to%20private%20life%20(Art.

Of course it seems that like transmen she is the wrong sort of woman for posters on these threads. The restrictions on who is permitted to be a woman become more and more extensive. That always happens with discrimination.
Many same sex couples have children and happy family lives.

Doodledog

That’s rather a different narrative from the one that suggests that CS was raised as a girl, lives as a woman and is being denied the chance to be herself, isn’t it? Oh, and if anyone questions anything about it they must be racist.

I note that we still haven’t been told who is being accused of ‘peddling hatred’. It would be good to know if that was another personal attack or just a vague and generalised comment.

'Peddling hatred' is a bit of a get-out accusation.

It's like the term "Nazi" that's thrown around liberally... or being called an extremist because you are forceful or 'energetic' in your argument.

If anyone on here was really peddling hatred - the nasty stuff that surfaces sometimes on forums like reddit, etc - or even Facebook, where some are calling for violence - or glorifying that it has actually happened to a minority group - or any group... I am sure that GNHQ would be on it and delete it PDQ.

That’s rather a different narrative from the one that suggests that CS was raised as a girl, lives as a woman and is being denied the chance to be herself, isn’t it? Oh, and if anyone questions anything about it they must be racist.

I note that we still haven’t been told who is being accused of ‘peddling hatred’. It would be good to know if that was another personal attack or just a vague and generalised comment.

I should add that if Caster Semenya truly believed they were female, then of course it's momentous for Caster to find out they are male. Fortunately Caster is married to a beautiful woman who has given birth to two children, so at least has a happy family life.

The sex of unborn babies can be determined by a blood test, so I see no reason why a non-invasive test can’t be used on athletes.
Doodledog it can, a simple cheek swab from your mouth enables DNA to establish your sex. Is that really "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment"? How about all sportspeople are swabbed at say, 12 years of age or later if that's when they start competing. One test, once in their lives that gives them a 'sex passport' for entry to any sport.

It's worth noting that Caster Semenya, who Glorianny has referenced in the past is a biological male who went through a male puberty, courtesy of the functioning internal testes that produce testosterone to which Caster is sensitive. Caster has a DSD 5αR2D which only affects males.

That's the system you support
No. Please don’t tell me what I support.

I support women’s sports being kept for female participants. As people want to cheat then tears need to be applied, in the same way as because people take performance enhancing drugs there need to be tests to determine whether they have taken drugs. The sex of unborn babies can be determined by a blood test, so I see no reason why a non-invasive test can’t be used on athletes.

No that’s the system you support Glorianny.
You go off on little sideways trails into all the areas I mentioned before, ignoring males like Liar Thomas and Emily Bridges who rob females of a their awards.
Sadly people are still saying it’s all right to support cheats and liars to enable them to take female places and awards.
One of the reasons for what you quote above is exactly because males keep lying and cheating, which makes people like the strong, tall, muscular, deep-voiced females beloved of some posters (I’ve got a good memory) come under unwanted scrutiny.
Support the TW cheats and liars by not condemning them, and you are condoning the treatment of females that you mention above.

Galaxy

You make me laugh Gloriamny. I have no idea about others but I am involved in a range of actions on this issue. It's possible to do that and discuss the issue on here. Talking on the internet is actually one of the reasons most campaigns on this issue started.

I don't think I have said you aren't have I?

Of course I find abuse unacceptable, but accepting that women should always lose is not the answer to that. Again, my answer is that the way to deal with men in women's sport is not to allow it. Simple. If athletes fail to satisfy the committees that they are female they should be disqualified. I don't have a problem with that, whatever skin colour they have (which I see as irrelevant to this discussion).

The abuse is perpetrated by the committees Doodledog The European Court agreed that the 2019 regulations perpetuate the arbitrary scrutiny of women’s bodies in ways that are degrading and invasive of privacy, on grounds that are scientifically contested. Such regulations are incompatible with respect for women’s rights to bodily integrity, freedom from cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment, dignity, and non-discrimination.
That's the system you support

You make me laugh Gloriamny. I have no idea about others but I am involved in a range of actions on this issue. It's possible to do that and discuss the issue on here. Talking on the internet is actually one of the reasons most campaigns on this issue started.

2. Transwomen are male. Are you saying that human rights mean that females must accept male competitors in their sports.

Are you saying that it’s right to accept when males tell lies regarding their sex?

I have never seen you support female rights to female only teams.
I have seen you skirt round the issue with race, the fact that you are unable to tell the difference between male and female, or you bring in suggestions that it’s wrong to ask people to show their genitals, when no one other than you has suggested they should.

It is not empowering women to put them in a position where they could become hounded our of their roles and lose anonymity to the point where their lives would be made a misery, as brave women such as JKR, Kathleen Stock et al have done. It is loading the gun and getting them to fire it. Are you admitting that it is victimising women to allow them no private facilities though? That is a step forward, I suppose.

Of course I find abuse unacceptable, but accepting that women should always lose is not the answer to that. Again, my answer is that the way to deal with men in women's sport is not to allow it. Simple. If athletes fail to satisfy the committees that they are female they should be disqualified. I don't have a problem with that, whatever skin colour they have (which I see as irrelevant to this discussion).

WRT your first point, you have said both that it is not say (or was it possible?) to tell a transwoman from a woman, and even posted photos in an attempt to make the point. You have also said that if women would not attend an event because transwomen were going the transwomen would not be allowed. Which are you denying? I don't know why you are asking me which is applicable, as I have made neither claim. Are you hoping for a Gotcha? I can't help you there, sorry.

Finally, can you please clarify just who it is that you are accusing of pedalling hatred? Just so we know whether or not you are accusing people on here, and if not, who is being accused. TIA

Doodledog

Glorianny

I'm posting it again Blame shifting never helps solve anything

No one has asked women to deal with men's problems. We are however part of society as are transpeople and we all need to work to create a more tolerant and inclusive society. That isn't done by blaming one section and targeting them or by passing the responsibility for violence onto one section of society.
And certainly not by stirring up hate and division then standing back and blaming others.

Well actually, you have done exactly that. A few examples:
* When I and others have said that we are unhappy about men in our spaces you ask how we (as women) would police things to prevent it, knowing that this is very difficult, as you yourself point out regularly that it is not always easy to spot a transwoman. We are told that we must object if we would prefer transwomen not to be there, but not how we should do this, to whom, or at what point in the process (ie before the event, when we get there, or what, exactly?) If it is too late, and the event goes ahead with transwomen in attendance, it will be women who miss out if we don't attend, and if women just don't bother going, the same will apply. Objecting 'on the door' is likely to be risky, given the history of abuse towards women by TRAs. I am thinking here of events such as the Lesbian speed-dating, and of local sporting events such as women's rugby - not things that people wouldn't attend because of bigotry, but because of fear of abuse or injury.

* The reason you give for putting women at risk by being locked up with male prisoners is that there might be a risk of suicide if they are housed with other male criminals. This means that female prisoners are put at risk rather than the sex offending transwomen to whom we object. If special jails for transpeople are built, where will the budget come from? Will it mean fewer mother and baby units in women's jails? More prisoners being housed in cramped conditions? It seems unlikely that more money will be found to build new jails, but if that happens will it be women who occupy the new, modern space, or will they stay in poor conditions to free up funding for male offenders?

* When male athletes compete against women, it is women who oppose this who are accused of phobia and expected to find a way of making the competition fair without 'discriminating' against the men who want to compete against them. If the athlete is black, and fails the tests for being female, there are also accusations of racism.

* I have mentioned the situation in my place of work, where the one women's toilet block on the floor where I am based is now 'gender neutral', as well as accommodating the disabled and baby changing. The Gents are still there, for men only, so women struggle to pee between lectures, as our loos are used by everyone (including the general public, as the building is on a thoroughfare), and many women are reluctant to use them when it is dark or less busy than usual.

I could go on, but there is enough there to illustrate how I feel that women are expected to solve the issues. We either put up with it or complain (and get accused of peddling hatred).

To 1. I have never actually said that I have pointed out that policing places is difficult and making judgements by appearance impacts on women who choose to dress in an unconventional way. But the law is there. Saying that spaces for women are not protected by law is a little different to claiming the law is not practical. Perhaps you could decide which is applicable.

2.I haven't said women should find a way of making competitive sport more equal. I have pointed out that women are discriminated against in sport and that the European Court described the way women are treated as an abuse of human rights. I would have imagined that anyone who supported women would find such abuse unacceptable. It seems not.

3. Colonise the mens. Why not just change the sign yourselves? That's not putting responsibility on women it is empowering them. Or instead of moaning on here organise a petition write to the building managers.
Maya Angelou
A wise woman wishes to be no one's enemy; a wise woman refuses to be anyone's victim.

I know little of the prison sector other than what is in the media, but it sounds pretty much unrelentingly grim, and TBH I don't approve of the idea that by 'identifying' as trans a sex offender (or any serious offender) should be housed in a newly built modern prison when people convicted of similar or lesser offences are in crumbling overcrowded conditions.

That is not in any way to persecute transpeople, but to be fair to everyone. I am sure that there would be people deciding to 'identify' as trans in order to get a place in a pleasanter jail, just as there are people claiming to be trans in order to get access to vulnerable women.

I repeat - this is not said to suggest that transpeople are dangerous. I say it because some men are dangerous, and giving special treatment to those who claim trans status by self-id will allow those men to take advantage of that in ways that are detrimental to women (or actively dangerous to women's safety).

No one has ever said transwomen should be accommodated in women's prisons Mollygo.
No Glorianny,
But you refuse to say that they shouldn’t be anccommodated there, even those who are convicted of rape and violence against females, or those who in addition to their crimes agains females, suddenly decide to say they’re trans.
You simply waffle on about making separate spaces which I agree with, as long as the separate spaces are not in female prisons. Why are you so keen that males guilty of violence against females are incarcerated on female sites?

Glorianny

I'm posting it again Blame shifting never helps solve anything

No one has asked women to deal with men's problems. We are however part of society as are transpeople and we all need to work to create a more tolerant and inclusive society. That isn't done by blaming one section and targeting them or by passing the responsibility for violence onto one section of society.
And certainly not by stirring up hate and division then standing back and blaming others.

Well actually, you have done exactly that. A few examples:
* When I and others have said that we are unhappy about men in our spaces you ask how we (as women) would police things to prevent it, knowing that this is very difficult, as you yourself point out regularly that it is not always easy to spot a transwoman. We are told that we must object if we would prefer transwomen not to be there, but not how we should do this, to whom, or at what point in the process (ie before the event, when we get there, or what, exactly?) If it is too late, and the event goes ahead with transwomen in attendance, it will be women who miss out if we don't attend, and if women just don't bother going, the same will apply. Objecting 'on the door' is likely to be risky, given the history of abuse towards women by TRAs. I am thinking here of events such as the Lesbian speed-dating, and of local sporting events such as women's rugby - not things that people wouldn't attend because of bigotry, but because of fear of abuse or injury.

* The reason you give for putting women at risk by being locked up with male prisoners is that there might be a risk of suicide if they are housed with other male criminals. This means that female prisoners are put at risk rather than the sex offending transwomen to whom we object. If special jails for transpeople are built, where will the budget come from? Will it mean fewer mother and baby units in women's jails? More prisoners being housed in cramped conditions? It seems unlikely that more money will be found to build new jails, but if that happens will it be women who occupy the new, modern space, or will they stay in poor conditions to free up funding for male offenders?

* When male athletes compete against women, it is women who oppose this who are accused of phobia and expected to find a way of making the competition fair without 'discriminating' against the men who want to compete against them. If the athlete is black, and fails the tests for being female, there are also accusations of racism.

* I have mentioned the situation in my place of work, where the one women's toilet block on the floor where I am based is now 'gender neutral', as well as accommodating the disabled and baby changing. The Gents are still there, for men only, so women struggle to pee between lectures, as our loos are used by everyone (including the general public, as the building is on a thoroughfare), and many women are reluctant to use them when it is dark or less busy than usual.

I could go on, but there is enough there to illustrate how I feel that women are expected to solve the issues. We either put up with it or complain (and get accused of peddling hatred).

These replies vividly illustrate what I posted applies to all who pedal hatred

Not vividly enough, I'm afraid.

Are you accusing me of pedalling hatred? If not, who is being so accused? When you are so vague it is difficult to know how to respond, but if this is a dig at posters on this thread, I will break with my usual approach and report your comment. I will take a nil response as an admission, as just disappearing will not make this egregious insult disappear.

If there is another explanation for the comment, then that's obviously different, but as I say, the vagueness in which it is couched makes it difficult to understand.

Describing reality, detailing the section of society that commits most violent sexual assaults and describing the need for sex segregated spaces is not stirring up hate.

I'm posting it again Blame shifting never helps solve anything

No one has asked women to deal with men's problems. We are however part of society as are transpeople and we all need to work to create a more tolerant and inclusive society. That isn't done by blaming one section and targeting them or by passing the responsibility for violence onto one section of society.
And certainly not by stirring up hate and division then standing back and blaming others.

Doodledog

Who is stirring up hate and division if not the TRAs who scream TERF and threaten death and rape to those who disagree with them? Asking questions about the language, sport, the welfare of children and the privacy and dignity of women is not 'stirring up hate and division'. Violent objection to the fact that the questions are being asked is another matter, though.

Also, who 'explained' that the judiciary were faced with a difficult situation after a large number of transwomen in male prisons committed suicide, and wrongly sent some to women's prisons? I don't remember such an explanation, other than by you, and unless you are in a position to objectively dictate what was done 'wrongly', you are as reliant on your own opinion as the rest of us.

These replies vividly illustrate what I posted applies to all who pedal hatred.

Thanks Doodledog
All the hate seems to be stirred up by TRAs, some violent TW and in this case Glorianny.
Why do you keep bringing up hatred Glorianny, without acknowledging that your Posts are the posts that mention stirring up hatred?
Are women or TM going into male safe spaces and punching men who say they make them feel threatened?
Are women or transmen lying
and cheating their way into male sports?
Are TM taking male jobs on the grounds that they “feel” they are men?

Who is stirring up hate and division if not the TRAs who scream TERF and threaten death and rape to those who disagree with them? Asking questions about the language, sport, the welfare of children and the privacy and dignity of women is not 'stirring up hate and division'. Violent objection to the fact that the questions are being asked is another matter, though.

Also, who 'explained' that the judiciary were faced with a difficult situation after a large number of transwomen in male prisons committed suicide, and wrongly sent some to women's prisons? I don't remember such an explanation, other than by you, and unless you are in a position to objectively dictate what was done 'wrongly', you are as reliant on your own opinion as the rest of us.

Doodledog

Iam64

Rosie51 and Galaxy make the point made often in these discussions,
Men are more violent, they’re violent to other men, to women, to trans women and I’m certain to trans men.

Exactly. So why is it up to women to deal with their problems?

No one has asked women to deal with men's problems. We are however part of society as are transpeople and we all need to work to create a more tolerant and inclusive society. That isn't done by blaming one section and targeting them or by passing the responsibility for violence onto one section of society.
And certainly not by stirring up hate and division then standing back and blaming others.

Mollygo

*It disturbs me that some people think sending transwomen to male prisons where they are undoubtedly more at risk of rape and abuse (not to mention suicide) is acceptable.*
That disturbs me that anyone anywhere is at risk of rape and abuse (not to mention suicide)
but I find it equally disturbing that people are happy to send trans women to female prisons, where female prisoners are at risk of rape and abuse by males who have been imprisoned for exactly that crime.
If we’re talking about Separate areas for transwomen prisoners, then, why shouldn’t they be in male prisons, especially when they have been imprisoned for crimes of rape and violence towards women or towards anybody actually?
They would be as safe in separate areas there as they would be in separate areas in female prisons and the other female inmates would not be at risk from them.
How do you justify this urge to protect males and put them in places which would put females at risk?

No one has ever said transwomen should be accommodated in women's prisons Mollygo It has been explained that the judiciary were faced with a difficult situation after a large number of transwomen in male prisons committed suicide, and wrongly sent some to women's prisons.
Facilities for transwomen are being made and they will be accommodated there.
It might be nice if you could stop accusing people of having views you completely manufacture

Iam64

Rosie51 and Galaxy make the point made often in these discussions,
Men are more violent, they’re violent to other men, to women, to trans women and I’m certain to trans men.

Exactly. So why is it up to women to deal with their problems?