Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Thanks Doodledog. Interesting post, especially since Glorianny thought it was so important that I got to read it twice.

The problem with many of G’s posts especially re males competing as females, is that in endorsing that, she implies that the risk to females is unimportant, at the same time as saying we don’t care about “women” (she presumably means TW, as we’re expressing concern for all AHF, and TW are AHM).
Trans Women Are Transwomen, Glorianny.
They are male.

Putting TW needs in female competitions, above those of females is discriminating against females.
Putting females first in female competitions is not discriminating against TW, because TW are not female.

Posted too soon - the point is also that the techniques being used to control speech and even thought (mangling the language, 'cancelling', violence and so on) are typical of dictators of any stripe.

That post was not about you, Glorianny. Just because you don't know anyone doing A B or C doesn't mean it isn't happening.

I should have realised that you would ignore the relevant bits of the post in favour of positioning the narrative to suit your politics. The point is surely that it doesn't matter whether the threat is from the right or the left - they are equally dangerous at the extremes, and very similar in their totalitarianism. Would you rather have lived under Stalin, Mao or Pinochet?

Doodledog

There is an interesting article in today's Telegraph. It is about anti-semitism, and as such is a dig at the Left of the Labour Party (much of which has now been expelled or has left). The whole thing is here*, but I've pasted the first half below:

For years now, those of us who warned of the devastating threat posed by the takeover of our institutions by woke ideologues were relentlessly attacked and ridiculed. There is no such thing as “woke”, we were assured by patronising Left-wingers, just “kind” people who “care” about others and who believe in “social justice”, fighting “prejudice”, “clarifying” history, embracing sexual “self-realisation”, “saving the planet” and promoting the fundamental “equality” of all human beings.

We were right, it turns out, and the centrist dads were spectacularly wrong. Voters now widely understand that the rise of extreme trans advocacy has led to the mutilation of many children and the erosion of women’s rights. Yet this is only one small part of the destructive ideological tsunami unleashed by woke fanatics. Our warnings, if anything, understated the scale of the problem, and in particular the authoritarian, even fascistic, nature of “critical race theory” and “postcolonial theory”, other key components of this demented way of thinking.

Take the West’s best universities, home of what used to be called political correctness. When questioned by a US Congressional committee, the heads of Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology all but refused to confirm that calling for the genocide of Jews would violate the universities’ code of conduct. It would “depend on the context”, they argued.

Remember, these are paranoid places obsessed with “microagressions”, where “truth” is subjective, where strict speech codes are imposed to prevent “offence”, where academics or students can be hounded out for “misgendering” somebody, and where conservative views are often equated with racism. But when it comes to Jew-hate – and only then – they pretend to believe in free speech. Racism is banned, but not if it is directed at Jews, or white people, or members of any group not deemed worthy of protection.

The double-standards are shocking, but they are not accidental, and they have also corrupted British universities. The woke ideology divides the world into oppressors and oppressed.

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, but I do believe that the crushing of debate, the bending of truth and blatant gaslighting, the melding of so-called 'gender' issues with race, sexuality and even environmentalism is happening, and with it is a very worrying trend towards totalitarian suppression of anything outside of an approved world view, which is turning more and more scary. As I've said before, the extreme right at the extreme left are equally oppressive, and the way the trans agenda operates is to pretend to be liberal and accepting, whilst actually taking rights from women and children, forwarding male privilege and crushing resistance either by 'cancellation' or violence. It's very concerning, and I can only hope that enough people see through it before it is too late.

*you will need to subscribe, or get a free subscription to read the whole thing. The free trial allows you to access X items a month, and they don't pester you.

No one I know on the extreme left as you refer to it (I would argue what is now called extreme was simply left, until politics took a huge shift to the right leading to the appointment of Trump, Johnson, Braverman and Patel, not to mention the adulation of Farage) has ever advocated violence.
The weaponising of anti-semitism in political debates is one of the worst aspects of politics in the world today. But the discussion of the holocaust in universities was tackled in Alan Bennett's History Boys. There's the section dealing with that and an assessment here whatthehellisart.wordpress.com/2019/07/27/the-history-boys-and-the-holocaust/

Extremism does lead to injury and often to death, but the far right in politics is far more in ascendence than the far left. It's evident in the rise of fundamentalist religions, in political appointments,and in the language used about asylum seekers and migrants. The greatest number of terrorist threats in the US now comes from the Christian far right. The same people who Trump encouraged to storm the Capitol, with these words
Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer. And we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. And we’re going to have to fight much harder.
But apparently it's people on the left and woke philosophies we have to fear.
But then it is the Telegraph what would you expect?

There is an interesting article in today's Telegraph. It is about anti-semitism, and as such is a dig at the Left of the Labour Party (much of which has now been expelled or has left). The whole thing is here*, but I've pasted the first half below:

For years now, those of us who warned of the devastating threat posed by the takeover of our institutions by woke ideologues were relentlessly attacked and ridiculed. There is no such thing as “woke”, we were assured by patronising Left-wingers, just “kind” people who “care” about others and who believe in “social justice”, fighting “prejudice”, “clarifying” history, embracing sexual “self-realisation”, “saving the planet” and promoting the fundamental “equality” of all human beings.

We were right, it turns out, and the centrist dads were spectacularly wrong. Voters now widely understand that the rise of extreme trans advocacy has led to the mutilation of many children and the erosion of women’s rights. Yet this is only one small part of the destructive ideological tsunami unleashed by woke fanatics. Our warnings, if anything, understated the scale of the problem, and in particular the authoritarian, even fascistic, nature of “critical race theory” and “postcolonial theory”, other key components of this demented way of thinking.

Take the West’s best universities, home of what used to be called political correctness. When questioned by a US Congressional committee, the heads of Harvard, the University of Pennsylvania and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology all but refused to confirm that calling for the genocide of Jews would violate the universities’ code of conduct. It would “depend on the context”, they argued.

Remember, these are paranoid places obsessed with “microagressions”, where “truth” is subjective, where strict speech codes are imposed to prevent “offence”, where academics or students can be hounded out for “misgendering” somebody, and where conservative views are often equated with racism. But when it comes to Jew-hate – and only then – they pretend to believe in free speech. Racism is banned, but not if it is directed at Jews, or white people, or members of any group not deemed worthy of protection.

The double-standards are shocking, but they are not accidental, and they have also corrupted British universities. The woke ideology divides the world into oppressors and oppressed.

I don't necessarily agree with everything in the article, but I do believe that the crushing of debate, the bending of truth and blatant gaslighting, the melding of so-called 'gender' issues with race, sexuality and even environmentalism is happening, and with it is a very worrying trend towards totalitarian suppression of anything outside of an approved world view, which is turning more and more scary. As I've said before, the extreme right at the extreme left are equally oppressive, and the way the trans agenda operates is to pretend to be liberal and accepting, whilst actually taking rights from women and children, forwarding male privilege and crushing resistance either by 'cancellation' or violence. It's very concerning, and I can only hope that enough people see through it before it is too late.

*you will need to subscribe, or get a free subscription to read the whole thing. The free trial allows you to access X items a month, and they don't pester you.

Wonderfully put Glorianny.

It doesn't matter to me if you prefer to maintain your views rather than read anything which might cause you to question them.

I can say exactly the same about you. But I have the truth about TW and sport on my side. I don’t have to trawl the internet for a smidgeon of so called proof.
Males in female competitions are cheats.

Trans Women are Transwomen.
Glorianny.
I notice you don’t refute the truth of that with any biological evidence, preferring instead to drag in all sorts of diversions, which don’t deny that truth, but avoid having to answer.

I do question my views. I am very open to doing so, when I am insulted, slurred and spoken to as though I am a slow-witted child, I tend to close down.

I am very aware that the (numerous) qualifications I have in Equal Opps were taken years ago, and that thinking changes, and am at pains not to defend beliefs simply because I hold them, if that makes sense. I spent years teaching staff development courses on EOs, as it was then called (EDI, nowadays) and often came across older people who didn't question their views because they felt that they must be right because they were well-intentioned. I don't think (and I do hope) that I have not joined their number nowadays.

I am not trying to shoehorn bits of theory or examples from the Internet (which can be mined to find a reason to believe or disbelieve pretty much anything) - I just speak as I find, and whereas I don't think for a minute that you will believe it, I am fairly well-informed - enough to be conscious of both confirmation bias and the Dunning-Kruger effect, at least.

I can't be arsed with Gotchas and point-scoring though, and not will I be told to find evidence of something I believe to be offensive (ie one person of colour saying something that is assumed to be representative of a whole 'racial group'). I note that you still haven't commented on the fact that there are more differences than similarities between, say, a Sudanese nomad and a London-based lawyer (or myriad other combinations of disparate groups of people of colour). how can you talk about 'living as a woman' in that context, when there are so many very different ways of doing so.

Doodledog

You listen to the voice of some people of colour, and so do I. The difference is that you assume that this gives your opinion more credibility than others', whereas I see it as it is - I speak to some POC, who represent just that.

You can post as many links to articles about hormone levels etc as you like - it won't alter the fact that male-bodied athletes competing against female ones is unfair, and you are sounding increasingly desperate in your attempts to deny that.

I'm not desperate. I wonder can you be desperate and condescending? Doesn't the latter suggest a level of confidence?

I've asked for contrary opinions and you have given me none.
Did your read the racial microaggression statement? You've just used exactly their example.

Read the links or not it doesn't matter to me if you prefer to maintain your views rather than read anything which might cause you to question them.

Hormone level-yet another excuse for allowing males to cheat in sports competitions.
Well done Glorianny.
Do you believe that males should be allowed to cheat by competing against females.

Yes

You.

And bring in hormone levels in different races and use it as an excuse to back up your support of dishonesty.

Do it would seem.

If the DNA indicates male, then it is dishonest to claim the right to compete in female competitions.
If males identified by DNA, have long legs or big hands, or naturally higher or lower hormone levels, they are still male.
If females identified by DNA, have long legs, big hands higher or lower hormone levels, they are female.

Trans Women Are Transwomen Glorianny. Transwomen are male.

You listen to the voice of some people of colour, and so do I. The difference is that you assume that this gives your opinion more credibility than others', whereas I see it as it is - I speak to some POC, who represent just that.

You can post as many links to articles about hormone levels etc as you like - it won't alter the fact that male-bodied athletes competing against female ones is unfair, and you are sounding increasingly desperate in your attempts to deny that.

Doodledog

Seriously? Apart from the ongoing condescension, the idea that you are asking me to 'think a bit' about my racism is deeply ironic coming from someone who believes she can speak for all people of colour.

I have no intention of finding a black athlete to quote, as she would be one black athlete, and I refuse to sink to your level on that one.

I don't know what is so difficult for you to grasp - it doesn't matter how people 'identify'. What matters, when it comes to sport, is biology. It matters in other areas too, but in sport there is absolutely no wriggle room, however accommodating people may wish to be. Males competing against females gives the males the advantage, however they identify, and however they 'live as' the way women in their culture live.

I asked upthread whether you realised that black people come from all over the world, and have far more differences than similarities, but as ever, the difficult question was ignored, and you resorted to slurs and insults. Nobody, including you, can speak for all people of colour, and to believe that you can is not only typically arrogant but deluded.

I really don't speak for all black people Doodledog I have never claimed to do so, it is simply something you have accused me of. I am just listening to the voices of black people and being informed by them.

If you choose not to do so that is up to you.

Had you read the link I gave you, you would have learned (as I did) that some people think there are differences in hormone levels between black people and white people. I don't know if this is true. I certainly appreciate that much of our criticism of black people is deeply rooted in our history and examining our opinions about any issue to do with race is essential.

I think you have the wrong poster Glorianny. Without trawling back through the thread to check, I'm pretty confident that I've made no reference to CS and her partner having children, veiled or otherwise. If I am wrong then show me where.

Once again you are accusing me of being racist and anti trans; evidence please. Not your opinion but evidence.

Seriously? Apart from the ongoing condescension, the idea that you are asking me to 'think a bit' about my racism is deeply ironic coming from someone who believes she can speak for all people of colour.

I have no intention of finding a black athlete to quote, as she would be one black athlete, and I refuse to sink to your level on that one.

I don't know what is so difficult for you to grasp - it doesn't matter how people 'identify'. What matters, when it comes to sport, is biology. It matters in other areas too, but in sport there is absolutely no wriggle room, however accommodating people may wish to be. Males competing against females gives the males the advantage, however they identify, and however they 'live as' the way women in their culture live.

I asked upthread whether you realised that black people come from all over the world, and have far more differences than similarities, but as ever, the difficult question was ignored, and you resorted to slurs and insults. Nobody, including you, can speak for all people of colour, and to believe that you can is not only typically arrogant but deluded.

Keep going Glorianny.
You endorse males cheating and lying, so really, whatever you say is set against your support of that dishonesty.
If males are lying and cheating, it doesn’t matter about colour or race, height, weight or appearance.
If that lying and cheating and dishonesty impacts of females and you STILL support it, how can you justify casting aspersions on other females who don’t endorse that dishonesty?
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

Smileless2012

Thank you Doodledog and Rosie. I challenge you Gloriannny to give just one example that substantiates your accusation that I have "no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen".

It is because of my sympathy for all sportswomen that I do not want to see anymore of them denied their rightful place in their particular field denied them by biological men.

It seems to have escaped your notice that until TRA's started throwing the weight around by demanding 'rights' that so far despite being asked countless times, no one's been able to explain exactly what rights they are being denied, there was no issue with those who simply want to live their lives in peace.

Those who do, wouldn't dream of pushing their way into women's sports. They wouldn't dream of flaunting their penises (if they still have them of course) in front of women in changing rooms.

They are not the ones who threaten to rape women to death. Threaten the lives of women in the public domain and their families, who speak against their outrageous demands. Hurl accusations of transphobia and racism at those who are neither.

They are not the ones who push themselves into a lesbian speed dating event and expect to be welcomed by women who want relationships with other women, as lesbians.

All people matter to me Glorianny. I do not strive to put the welfare and well being of one group of people above another. But you do.

What if I were to give an example of a black female athlete who has spoken against having to compete against males? Are you suggesting that their objection should be taken more seriously than a white athlete's objection because they are black? Is there no end to your racist jibes regardless of how you attempt to to disguise them?

You disappoint me Glorianny, you really do and I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

As you have accused Caster Semenya of various things including a veiled reference to the fact that she and her partner have children I'm afraid I have little belief in your ability to decide what is fair or just.
She has always been referred to by the term "she", has always been classed as a woman by sports and courts, but you prefer to refer to her as male-bodied. How does that show sympathy or understanding? It shows a willingness to ignore her physical attributes in order to promote unseen masculine factors which have little relevance in every day life, but which you choose to highlight in order to denigrate her.
Now your posts may be generated by your anti-trans stance or by racism. or simply in ignorance, I really wouldn't know which, but they certainly show no support for the numbers of black sportswomen who like CS are trapped in a discriminatory system which has its roots deep in the history of white colonialism.

www.sbnation.com/2020/4/20/21227661/caster-semenya-world-athletics-regulation-body-racism

Doodledog

Exactly, Rosie.

You are the one bringing race into this, Glorianny, and whether or not black women athletes are prepared to speak out in the current climate is not the point. They are still disadvantaged by being forced to compete against men, whether they put their heads above the parapet or not. And whether they have done so or not has no bearing on Smileless' comment.

How you have the nerve to comment on people's ability to debate when you resort to personal attacks like this on a regular basis is beyond me.

So black women haven't said anything but you imagine you have the right to speak for them
I suggest you investigate racial microaggressions. One of which includes these words
Denial of individual racism
A statement made when Whites
deny their racial biases
“I’m not racist. I have several Black
friends.
I am immune to racism because I
have friends of color.
As a woman, I know what you go
through as a racial minority
Your racial oppression is no different
than my gender oppression. I can’t
be a racist. I’m like you
sph.umn.edu/site/docs/hewg/microaggressions.pdf
Then think a bit

Rosie51

Glorianny You cannot possibly slur Smileless on the basis of whether a black athlete has spoken up or not about not wanting to compete against males, something over which she has no control.
You are a total disgrace and should hang your head in shame.

Oh yes, G can and G will, and the likelihood of G being ashamed of supporting male cheating over female honesty is fairly remote.
Since G only ever quotes CS or males raised as women in remote villages, I would imagine they would be happy to compete in female sports.
If we just take one does that mean G is saying that one would be allowed to speak for all and the others would just have to shut up?
How will we know that the one black sportswoman G mentions will actually be female?

Glorianny, as you put it, It is evident that you have no sympathy or understanding for sportswomen but really some natal women must matter to you.

I’ve taken out the word black, because I feel it’s important to have sympathy for all sports women (AHF) whether you limit your sympathy to a particular group or only males who claim to be women
Trans Women Are Transwomen Glorianny.

I’m not quoting the whole of DoodleDog’s post at 14:41, but it would be well worth rereading.
Sport- supporting cheating is incomprehensible to most people and males competing in female competitions is cheating.
I like DD’s suggestion that toilets are trickier, but they weren’t until the actions of some TW made it so. Those TW making it obvious it obvious that they are males or carrying out activities like upskirting or taking selfies and proclaiming that they are males in toilets have made it difficult for all TW.

Thank you Doodledog and Rosie. I challenge you Gloriannny to give just one example that substantiates your accusation that I have "no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen".

It is because of my sympathy for all sportswomen that I do not want to see anymore of them denied their rightful place in their particular field denied them by biological men.

It seems to have escaped your notice that until TRA's started throwing the weight around by demanding 'rights' that so far despite being asked countless times, no one's been able to explain exactly what rights they are being denied, there was no issue with those who simply want to live their lives in peace.

Those who do, wouldn't dream of pushing their way into women's sports. They wouldn't dream of flaunting their penises (if they still have them of course) in front of women in changing rooms.

They are not the ones who threaten to rape women to death. Threaten the lives of women in the public domain and their families, who speak against their outrageous demands. Hurl accusations of transphobia and racism at those who are neither.

They are not the ones who push themselves into a lesbian speed dating event and expect to be welcomed by women who want relationships with other women, as lesbians.

All people matter to me Glorianny. I do not strive to put the welfare and well being of one group of people above another. But you do.

What if I were to give an example of a black female athlete who has spoken against having to compete against males? Are you suggesting that their objection should be taken more seriously than a white athlete's objection because they are black? Is there no end to your racist jibes regardless of how you attempt to to disguise them?

You disappoint me Glorianny, you really do and I wish I could say I'm surprised, but I'm not.

Exactly, Rosie.

You are the one bringing race into this, Glorianny, and whether or not black women athletes are prepared to speak out in the current climate is not the point. They are still disadvantaged by being forced to compete against men, whether they put their heads above the parapet or not. And whether they have done so or not has no bearing on Smileless' comment.

How you have the nerve to comment on people's ability to debate when you resort to personal attacks like this on a regular basis is beyond me.

Glorianny You cannot possibly slur Smileless on the basis of whether a black athlete has spoken up or not about not wanting to compete against males, something over which she has no control.
You are a total disgrace and should hang your head in shame.

Doodledog

*It is evident that you have no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen but really some natal women must matter to you.*

It is not evident to me at all that Smileless has no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen. If you have any decency you will withdraw that slur.

There are black female athletes who are every bit as disadvantaged by being made to compete against males, and sympathy and understanding (not to mention outrage) applies equally to them.

Post me one black sportswomen who has said she doesn't want to see intersex black women competing because she feels disadvantaged Doodledog and I'll apologise. Until then the remark is true.

It is evident that you have no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen but really some natal women must matter to you.

It is not evident to me at all that Smileless has no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen. If you have any decency you will withdraw that slur.

There are black female athletes who are every bit as disadvantaged by being made to compete against males, and sympathy and understanding (not to mention outrage) applies equally to them.

So let's sum up where we have got to with the rules and required practices.
Well, you may see what you've written as 'summing up where we have got to', but I can't say I agree.

We will all need tests to show if we are biologically male or female.
We will if we choose to enter professional sport in a sex class to which we don't belong.

Then (presumably) we will have to carry those results with us.
Well, no, as we will be excluded if found to be of the other sex from the one we are trying to adopt. There would be no need to keep showing a test result, as sex doesn't change, so only one non-invasive swab would be needed.

Then people will use the facilities linked to their sex. So transwomen and intersex women (who have female genitalia) will use men's toilets and changing rooms.
No, as they will have been excluded from the female class of the sport in which they are participating. They would, of course, be at liberty to join the other class, but as often as not there would be no built-in advantage to doing so, so most probably wouldn't.

Women and transmen will use women's facilities. So people who look like men will be in women's facilities.
Quite the reverse. If only women, as tested by DNA, are allowed to compete in the female category, there will only be women using their facilities.

Elite sport will test sex, so women born in countries with few facilities who have qualified in their own country may be excluded.
Why? A DNA swab can be taken at the point of entry. The facilities will be available where there is budget and capacity for high level sporting events.

Transmen who test as female will take part in women's sports, be in women's spaces and in women's wards, even though they look like men
No, everyone will compete in the relevant sports class. The one in line with the competitors' biology.

And this is fair and protects women????
Absolutely. It would mean that women would have a fair chance of success in their field, would not have male-bodied people in the changing rooms, and would be able to compete fairly for educational scholarships based on having sporting ability better than usual for their sex.

It's not complicated.

As you are well aware, these matters are different when it comes to day to day life, but the question of transwomen and other male-bodied people in female sport can very easily be put to rest. Maybe if you could answer regarding sport before pointing out that toilets are trickier, we could agree (or agree to differ) on that matter before being diverted into a different bone of contention.

Smileless2012

"So people who look like men will be in women's facilities" well it's you Glorianny who repeatedly refers to women who don't look like women and that you're unable to tell men from women simply by looking at them.

I don't recall anyone here who disagrees with you saying we should judge on how someone looks. We are not the ones who make references to 'what someone has in their pants, or post about 'butch lesbians' being refused admittance into women's facilities and/or being beaten up for being there.

As I'm sure you know, this isn't about how people look. Nor is it about all members of the trans community. This is about biological males having an unfair physical advantage over women, being able to compete against women in sports.

It's about those trans women demanding to be treated in the way they wish, at the expense and in some cases to the risk of the very people they claim to be: women.

If "women born in countries with few facilities who have qualified in their own country" are to be excluded because they are in fact biological male then so be it.

"Transmen who test as female......." well of course they'll test as female/women, because that is what they are. Providing their hormonal levels fall within the authorised levels, they'll compete with women. I'm sure if they wanted too, they could compete with men but that's unlikely to happen because they will be disadvantaged unlike trans women who have the advantage.

It amazes me Smileless51 that the obvious inequalities don't occur to you.
That many of us reject the idea of ID cards but would be expected under your regime to carry proof of our sex.
Not to mention the transman issue. Because you can't challenge the bloke who is in the next cubicle to you because he may be male or he may just be a transman.
That having been designated male intersex people who have always identified as women will have to use male facilities.

Otherwise we will have to go on appearance and many transwomen would pass and many natal women wouldn't.
Did you read the tweets in the link I posted earlier from the lesbians you claim to care so much about? Who have been harrassed and challenged in facilities because of their appearance. Because they are butch (and that is the term they use). Are you willing to chuck those women under the bus just because you imagine there are men pretending to be transwomen waiting in every space?

It is evident that you have no sympathy or understanding for black sportswomen but really some natal women must matter to you.

"So people who look like men will be in women's facilities" well it's you Glorianny who repeatedly refers to women who don't look like women and that you're unable to tell men from women simply by looking at them.

I don't recall anyone here who disagrees with you saying we should judge on how someone looks. We are not the ones who make references to 'what someone has in their pants, or post about 'butch lesbians' being refused admittance into women's facilities and/or being beaten up for being there.

As I'm sure you know, this isn't about how people look. Nor is it about all members of the trans community. This is about biological males having an unfair physical advantage over women, being able to compete against women in sports.

It's about those trans women demanding to be treated in the way they wish, at the expense and in some cases to the risk of the very people they claim to be: women.

If "women born in countries with few facilities who have qualified in their own country" are to be excluded because they are in fact biological male then so be it.

"Transmen who test as female......." well of course they'll test as female/women, because that is what they are. Providing their hormonal levels fall within the authorised levels, they'll compete with women. I'm sure if they wanted too, they could compete with men but that's unlikely to happen because they will be disadvantaged unlike trans women who have the advantage.