Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

Am I imagining things or is glorianny’s habit of reposting large chunks of earlier contributions a way to shorten the discussion by filling it up and closing it down sooner? No, of course it couldn’t be that - could it?

Gosh, I didn't realise you speak for all black people Glorianny.

The apparent 'misunderstanding' is simply a way for you to continue your racist jibes.

I've asked if you have evidence of black people saying this isn't racism please post it. If not stop trying to pretend your views are anything to do with black people

I am doing nothing of the kind. I'm not even sure what 'to do with black people' means, but as I keep saying, my views are my own. I don't 'pretend' anything. And the idea that all black people will think something is not only idiotic but racist.

Please stop twisting my words. I am reluctant to believe that you can't follow my posts - plenty of other people do - so this constant 'misunderstanding' of everything I say doesn't wash.

Glorianny, Trans Women Are Transwomen. They are male. If they enter female sports it’s cheating. You support that cheating, no matter how you dress it up.

I’m still puzzled why you asked me what transmen are and where your examples of transmen taking medals from males have occurred.

Doodledog

You are doing it again - 'I defer to my black sisters'. What about the black people who disagree with you? Are they the wrong sort of sister, or do you just refuse to defer to them? All black people do not think alike.

If any black person says something is racist does that make it so? Or just the ones you already agree with? It's impossible to get through to people who think like that. It's a tautology, and reminds me of Marxists who say that if you don't agree with their views it is because you suffer from false class consciousness.

As for deferring to others' views - that is how we get to 'debates' like this. As I keep saying, I don't adhere to ideologies - I think for myself and defer to no-one when it comes to beliefs.

What is 'white culture'?

I've asked if you have evidence of black people saying this isn't racism please post it. If not stop trying to pretend your views are anything to do with black people

If a black person says something is racist and a white person denies that I am more likely to believe the black person, particularly when other black people agree with them.

White culture
nmaahc.si.edu/learn/talking-about-race/topics/whiteness

^While it was clearly understood that not all whites believe in the same set of assumptions and values, it was also clear that White Culture forms the underpinnings of what many whites believe is“appropriate” behavior in many organizations. White
Culture is the lens through which many white people view, evaluate and judge themselves and others regarding what is
“professional” and “normal” behavior in many contexts^

You are doing it again - 'I defer to my black sisters'. What about the black people who disagree with you? Are they the wrong sort of sister, or do you just refuse to defer to them? All black people do not think alike.

If any black person says something is racist does that make it so? Or just the ones you already agree with? It's impossible to get through to people who think like that. It's a tautology, and reminds me of Marxists who say that if you don't agree with their views it is because you suffer from false class consciousness.

As for deferring to others' views - that is how we get to 'debates' like this. As I keep saying, I don't adhere to ideologies - I think for myself and defer to no-one when it comes to beliefs.

What is 'white culture'?

The fact that white culture has identified a way of telling someone is intersex and now designates a black women as male is racist. It's not white culture, the science of biology is not racist, it is science. Sex is fixed at conception and is immutable. If you truly advocate different standards for different races, that definitely smacks of racism.

The truth.
The only 'wrong sort of women' are people who claim to be women for their own advantage, but are actually male-bodied.

This is not about discriminating against women, but about protecting women from those who want to eradicate us as a sex class and their supporters, whether those people are male or female.

Glorianny says . . .
Of course I don't think all black people think the same but neither do I ignore the voices of black people saying they are being discriminated against as you apparently do
Evidence? (Evidence and opinion are not the same thing)

Glorianny says . . .
Discrimination never stops at one group of people it always moves on to others.
That’s true.
*Which is why I am surprised that she so ardently discriminates against females in favour of TW.
*Trans Women Are Transwomen Glorianny!
Glorianny adds
Trying to justify that discrimination leads to abuse of people.
True!
But the people who are being abused are not just your endless use of CS, it is all the females who are being abused by having to compete against men, e.g the female rugby player damaged by a TW, the cyclists, swimmers and runners who abused by being told they aren’t good enough, when they’ve had to race against cheating males who claim to be women.
These females are being discriminated against by all those who think it is fair to let males compete in female competitions . . . And you keep trying to justify it, even when you know males are not female.

Doodledog

Most of the objections to the racism accusation have been about me personally which further weakens the argument.
A case I think of "Don't shoot the messenger"

'She's not the messenger, she's a very naughty girl/person/poster!'

No, the objections are not to you personally, but to the way you twist comments, assume that correlation = causation and see racism where it is not there. I don't know for whom you think you are carrying messages, but if my colour is relevant, so is yours, surely? And I am not speaking for anyone other than myself - I don't presume to be the messenger for others.

My opinions are as follows:
Male-bodied people should not be allowed to compete in women's sport.

Having a lifestyle that is more usual from women than men in your culture is not reason to allow male-bodied people to compete in female sport.

Testing for maleness is not connected to racism, and that would hold true even if more black people are discovered to fail the tests.

If white people are also tested and treated the same if they pass or fail the tests, then it is not racism.

There will be black people who agree with me and white people who don't. This is true of any given subject, and their agreement or otherwise is not connected to their race.

Being black does not give someone better insight into fairness in women's sport, and their beliefs on this topic are no more or less valuable than those of white people - their colour is irrelevant.

I am not saying, and have never said that the points of view of others do not exist.

I may have forgotten something, but that feels like a fairly accurate summary of my beliefs on the matter, with which you are, of course, free to agree or disagree, but I would be obliged if you would stop misrepresenting what I am saying.

Of course my colour matters I'm white, so when racism is mentioned I defer to my black sisters. Links to whose comments I have posted already.
Denying the experiences of black people no matter what their gender is what racism is about. It always has been.
As I posted already
The very heartbeat of racism is denial
How do you define a male bodied person?
In less developed countries it will be done by examining genitalia at birth. Caster Semenya was designated female at birth. She had her genitalia photographed at 18.
If she is now designated as male it was done by white people in a white culture. That's why it is racist. The fact that white culture has identified a way of telling someone is intersex and now designates a black women as male is racist.
The fact that it means white women now claim it as reason for pushing black women out of sport is racist. Read the links I posted. And listen to black women.

I actually strangely enough didnt say I thought it was racist I said have seen numerous Twitter threads where people argue that men taking womens spaces in sports impacts more on certain specific groups. The debate is that those who need scholarships (America obviously) dont get them as men take their place. This impacts most on those who experience poverty and some would argue that black women are more likely to experience poverty than some other groups. I dont really do identity politics but its certainly an argument that I have seen numerous times.

Rosie51

Glorianny

Glorianny

Galaxy

I could also show numerous people saying that the inclusion of men in sport particularly in America where sport is linked with scholarship, has a detrimental affect on black female athletes.

Then post them

Although I don't think one case of racism denys another. It just makes more racism

The black female athletes missing out on scholarships in America miss out just like their Caucasian, Asian, and Latino sisters because males who 'identify' as female compete with their male bodies denying them winning places. That's nothing to do with race, unless you're suggesting most of those transwomen are black. They're not, they're mostly your despised 'white men'

But I think Doodledog as already said she believes if something happens to white people as well it can't be racism. Is she wrong?
It's Galaxy who thinks it is racist by the way
I didn't say it was racist by the way I said one case of racism doesn't deny another. I also asked for proof.

Most of the objections to the racism accusation have been about me personally which further weakens the argument.
A case I think of "Don't shoot the messenger"

'She's not the messenger, she's a very naughty girl/person/poster!'

No, the objections are not to you personally, but to the way you twist comments, assume that correlation = causation and see racism where it is not there. I don't know for whom you think you are carrying messages, but if my colour is relevant, so is yours, surely? And I am not speaking for anyone other than myself - I don't presume to be the messenger for others.

My opinions are as follows:
Male-bodied people should not be allowed to compete in women's sport.

Having a lifestyle that is more usual from women than men in your culture is not reason to allow male-bodied people to compete in female sport.

Testing for maleness is not connected to racism, and that would hold true even if more black people are discovered to fail the tests.

If white people are also tested and treated the same if they pass or fail the tests, then it is not racism.

There will be black people who agree with me and white people who don't. This is true of any given subject, and their agreement or otherwise is not connected to their race.

Being black does not give someone better insight into fairness in women's sport, and their beliefs on this topic are no more or less valuable than those of white people - their colour is irrelevant.

I am not saying, and have never said that the points of view of others do not exist.

I may have forgotten something, but that feels like a fairly accurate summary of my beliefs on the matter, with which you are, of course, free to agree or disagree, but I would be obliged if you would stop misrepresenting what I am saying.

Glorianny

Glorianny

Galaxy

I could also show numerous people saying that the inclusion of men in sport particularly in America where sport is linked with scholarship, has a detrimental affect on black female athletes.

Then post them

Although I don't think one case of racism denys another. It just makes more racism

The black female athletes missing out on scholarships in America miss out just like their Caucasian, Asian, and Latino sisters because males who 'identify' as female compete with their male bodies denying them winning places. That's nothing to do with race, unless you're suggesting most of those transwomen are black. They're not, they're mostly your despised 'white men'

I am not denying that anyone thinks anything! Please stop twisting my words. Where have I said any such thing? I am well aware that both black and white people think all kinds of things, although unlike you I am not suggesting that they think them because of their race - that is ridiculous.

Also, just because someone thinks or says something doesn't make it true. What is true, however, is that there are only two sexes, and they remain constant, regardless of 'feelings', lifestyles or beliefs in 'wrong bodies'. Male bodies have the advantage over female ones in most sports, all other things being equal, which is the relevant factor here.

Glorianny

Galaxy

I could also show numerous people saying that the inclusion of men in sport particularly in America where sport is linked with scholarship, has a detrimental affect on black female athletes.

Then post them

Although I don't think one case of racism denys another. It just makes more racism

Galaxy

I could also show numerous people saying that the inclusion of men in sport particularly in America where sport is linked with scholarship, has a detrimental affect on black female athletes.

Then post them

Doodledog

*Glorianny*, I could find numerous articles from women saying that male-bodied people in sport is anti-feminist, and people saying that denying that women are being disadvantaged is misogyny. Would that mean that you were unable to face up to difficult problems?

I would absolutely agree that they have a point of view and a right to express that point of view. I wouldn't say it didn't exist.
Which seems to be your attitude to the opinions of black people.
I might disagree. I might cite other opinions, but I wouldn't deny they thought that.
But as a woman I would consider my view was as informed as any other woman's. So the misogyny accusation would be questionable.

Perhaps if you were black, or actually produced evidence that a number of black people were denying the racism in sport, in particular athletics, you would have an argument. But I don't think you are and you haven't.
Most of the objections to the racism accusation have been about me personally which further weakens the argument.
A case I think of "Don't shoot the messenger"

I could also show numerous people saying that the inclusion of men in sport particularly in America where sport is linked with scholarship, has a detrimental affect on black female athletes.

Glorianny, I could find numerous articles from women saying that male-bodied people in sport is anti-feminist, and people saying that denying that women are being disadvantaged is misogyny. Would that mean that you were unable to face up to difficult problems?

All I can do is suggest you read the opinions of these people

blogs.lse.ac.uk/gender/2020/12/07/straddling-the-line-between-gender-and-sex-how-racism-misogyny-and-transphobia-intertwine-to-define-notions-of-womanhood-in-the-world-of-elite-sports/
www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/9/28/black-women-athletes-are-undervalued-and-undermined
www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/aug/23/caster-semenya-athletics-gender
catalystjournal.org/index.php/catalyst/article/view/28800/21401
www.them.us/story/shacarri-ricardson-caster-semenya-black-athletes-disqualified-olympics

There are many more articles and much more research on the subject. Saying this is just me making jibes and being unpleasant only reveals an inability to face up to difficult problems.
And finally Ibram X Kendi - The very hearbeat of racism is denial
www.rochester.edu/newscenter/ibram-x-kendi-the-very-heartbeat-of-racism-is-denial-470332/

Thank you, Smileless. I'm pleased it's not just me who thinks that.

Your constant jibes about racism are as tiresome as they are unpleasant Glorianny.

Race doesn't come into it inasmuch as white women - 'many over the years' - have been tested too. If more black women have DSDs (which I am not saying is the case, as I don't know) so more are tested, that is still not racism, it is testing for possible cheats based on criteria other than race.

The fact (is it a fact?) that 'plenty' of black people (whatever that means) say something doesn't mean that you are not dragging it into the debate either - the things are not mutually exclusive. As I said earlier, you really are in no position to sneer at others for not understanding how to debate.

I am not ignoring anyone - that is yet another rather feeble personal attack. I am saying that racism is discrimination based on race, and when white people are treated in the same way as others then it doesn't qualify. And you were suggesting that all black people think the same by saying that I was rejecting black people's opinions. I wasn't doing anything of the sort. I was rejecting your opinion. I could only reject the opinions of black people if they all felt the same, which I believe to be nonsense, and, as I said in agreement with you, 'its own form of racism'.

Doodledog
You said
As for racism, that really is just personal attack, on the level of name-calling. The fact that CS is black is irrelevant, and dragging race into it shows the desperation of your argument. There are many black sportspeople who are cheered on and celebrated for their talent. There are other cheats* who are not allowed to compete. Race doesn’t come into it

You are entirely entitled to say in your opinion it is not racism.

You are not entitled to make statements like Race doesn't come into it when the athlete involved who is black has said it does and so have many other black athletes.

Accusing me of dragging race into it is another example of a falsehood. There are plenty of examples of black people saying they regard it as racism which apparently you have chosen to ignore.
Of course I don't think all black people think the same but neither do I ignore the voices of black people saying they are being discriminated against, as you apparently do.

It amuses me that people who obviously are not experts think they can be the final judge on what is racism.
Well, as I've said before, your SOH is very different from mine. I see none of this as 'amusing', in fact I see many of your responses as deeply concerning. Also, I am in no way saying that I can be the final judge on what is racism. Can you point to where I have envy hinted at that? You are the one who makes condescending comments on the lines of 'if you can't understand XYZ is racism then I don't know what to say to you', as though you are (a) speaking to a child in the way people did in the 60s, and (b) assuming the high ground with no obvious qualification to do so.

Many black athletes, many black politicians and leaders have said it is racism. It isn't my opinion it is the opinion of black people, who I think would recognise racism more than you
Many politicians agree with the Rwanda plan, or in means-testing. I dare say that many black athletes will disagree with the treatment of CS being based on race too. For someone making personal jibes about others not understanding the concepts of debate, you have a lot to learn.

It isn't my opinion you are rejecting, it is black people's. Which I suppose is its own type of racism.
Are you suggesting that all black people think alike? You'r damn right that that is its own type of racism.