Endometriosis charity appoints trans woman as the new head of the organisation.

No Glorianny the minority are not asking for equal treatment. They are asking for special treatment at the expense of equal treatment of the majority.

Nobody's free until everybody's free I agree but that doesn't mean that some are entitled to be more free than others.

I better confess - I don’t have a problem with children who are athletic winning races. Some of those children will be dyslexic, neuro diverse, sad or lonely, why should their natural ability be diminished?
Yes of course I understand some children will never win a race or be gifted in football, cricket, gymnastics or whatever. They may have other talents - or none. Good schools work with all their children

Dickens

Smileless2012

If a trans man during the course of transitioning has taken hormones, regardless of whether or not their hormone levels are at the acceptable level because they've taken a break in order to compete against women, they should not be allowed to compete against females.

I don't understand why you have a problem with that Glorianny as you've acknowledged that previously taken hormones can benefit the recipient.

Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. That does not give trans women right to compete against women, or trans men who have had the benefit of hormonal treatment to compete against women.

Insisting that TWAW was always going to cause a problem in areas where biological sex is relevant.

It might matter little - or not at all - in (for example) the Arts and Entertainment world, or other social settings, but it certainly matters in sport, and often in medicine, and always in the context of women-only spaces.

A minority is demanding that the majority adapt to them - to the disadvantage of that majority. Who are women. And, as usual, it is men demanding that women accommodate them.

No a minority is asking for equal treatment. It is one of the basic elements of human rights.
The UN pledge on human rights
I will respect your rights regardless of who you are. I will uphold your rights even when I disagree with you
When anyone’s human rights are denied, everyone's rights are undermined, so I will STAND UP
I will raise my voice. I will take action. I will use my rights to stand up for your rights
Minorities have the right to be treated equally.
Or in the words of Fanny Lou Harmer
Nobody's free until everybody's free

Doodledog

Given that it was possible to ‘carefully orchestrate’ a school sports day to ensure that everyone won something, how can you argue that male-bodied people racing women is ok?

Because competition for children is not always advisable or good for them. Especially when it means some children never get the chance to win. If Mollygo had asked the children in year 6 who would be the first three in a class race they would probably all say the same three names. Children are not professional sports people. Trying to apply the same rules to a school sports day as to an olympic event is not only impossible it is unwise.
But some people will resort to wild comparisons to justify the unjustifiable.

Smileless2012

If a trans man during the course of transitioning has taken hormones, regardless of whether or not their hormone levels are at the acceptable level because they've taken a break in order to compete against women, they should not be allowed to compete against females.

I don't understand why you have a problem with that Glorianny as you've acknowledged that previously taken hormones can benefit the recipient.

Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. That does not give trans women right to compete against women, or trans men who have had the benefit of hormonal treatment to compete against women.

Insisting that TWAW was always going to cause a problem in areas where biological sex is relevant.

It might matter little - or not at all - in (for example) the Arts and Entertainment world, or other social settings, but it certainly matters in sport, and often in medicine, and always in the context of women-only spaces.

A minority is demanding that the majority adapt to them - to the disadvantage of that majority. Who are women. And, as usual, it is men demanding that women accommodate them.

Given that it was possible to ‘carefully orchestrate’ a school sports day to ensure that everyone won something, how can you argue that male-bodied people racing women is ok?

Honestly what is the point of debating with people who don't understand basic debating practices?
😂😂😂😂😂

I thought hormones are drugs. Why is it suddenly OK for drug takers to compete
in sport?
Is it now OK for females competing in female sports , or males who compete in male sports to take drugs before, or during competing?
Or is it just that TW who want to cheat are a special case?

If a trans man during the course of transitioning has taken hormones, regardless of whether or not their hormone levels are at the acceptable level because they've taken a break in order to compete against women, they should not be allowed to compete against females.

I don't understand why you have a problem with that Glorianny as you've acknowledged that previously taken hormones can benefit the recipient.

Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. That does not give trans women right to compete against women, or trans men who have had the benefit of hormonal treatment to compete against women.

Glorianny

AS for the Iran statement you really don't understand that there are more women in education in Iran than in any other Arab country. They have more women now in medical training than any time in the past
Ten years ago only 12.5% of Iranian medical students were women, and the government responded by setting a goal that half of new students would be female. Today, one-third of the 22 326 students in Iran's 38 medical schools are women.
The education is segregated of course and human rights are restricted, but let's not make wrongful accusations.

Of course it was a brain slip I meant Afghanistan.

It's a hypothetical proposal Rosie51
If something is hypothetical, it is based on possible ideas or situations rather than actual ones
Honestly what is the point of debating with people who don't understand basic debating practices?

Back to the personal insults again, so predictable.
So now you're saying that testosterone will not change the female who takes it, give them greater muscle mass etc. Begs the question, why take it at all?

As for a trans category with one entrant. That's the whole point. Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify I never said there was one entrant, there were no entrants because they wanted to race in the female category despite being males. As for transpeople being a minority it didn't stop 1st and 2nd places going to transwomen with the female coming in 3rd in that recent cycle race. Oh how stunning and brave! The two minority entrants bagged first and second places.

Glorianny says . . .
And what are transmen Mollygo?

Are you really pretending you don’t know, Glorianny. 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Trans Men Are Transmen.
Transmen are female.

You still haven’t provided the evidence of all those TM who have cheated by entering make competitions and depriving males of their hard earned medals. Is that because . . .

AS for the Iran statement you really don't understand that there are more women in education in Iran than in any other Arab country. They have more women now in medical training than any time in the past
Ten years ago only 12.5% of Iranian medical students were women, and the government responded by setting a goal that half of new students would be female. Today, one-third of the 22 326 students in Iran's 38 medical schools are women.
The education is segregated of course and human rights are restricted, but let's not make wrongful accusations.

Rosie51

Glorianny I said no such thing Rosie51

These are your own words exactly quoted
If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him?

If you don't believe testosterone gives the female transitioner any benefit why pose the question? It would be like me asking if chanting magic mantras changes one's biological sex.

You can squirm, you can twist people's words, but the facts are people compete with sexed bodies, not mantras, and it is impossible to change your biological sex. If it were possible don't you think a lot of females in Iran would be taking advantage so they could go to school, work, receive medical treatment?

It's a hypothetical proposal Rosie51
If something is hypothetical, it is based on possible ideas or situations rather than actual ones
Honestly what is the point of debating with people who don't understand basic debating practices?

Mollygo

I knew G/T wouldn’t like that analogy, but unfortunately those were the classes I was teaching yesterday.
The analogy (because I know Glorianny will find it difficult to understand) is that making females compete against cheating males is as unfair as racing Y6 (or Y5, Y4 etc) against Y1.
It’s nothing to do with age really. It’s to do with the fact that Y6 have advantages that Y1 can’t possibly have, in the same way that males having passed through puberty have advantages that females can’t have.

Actually, Glorianny’s tinkering is a perfect example of what TW are attempting to do-*twist the system to suit themselves* but her prejudices won’t let her accept that.
Males are not female.
Carry on with your prejudice Glorianny.
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

And what are transmen Mollygo?

Glorianny I said no such thing Rosie51

These are your own words exactly quoted
If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him?

If you don't believe testosterone gives the female transitioner any benefit why pose the question? It would be like me asking if chanting magic mantras changes one's biological sex.

You can squirm, you can twist people's words, but the facts are people compete with sexed bodies, not mantras, and it is impossible to change your biological sex. If it were possible don't you think a lot of females in Iran would be taking advantage so they could go to school, work, receive medical treatment?

I knew G/T wouldn’t like that analogy, but unfortunately those were the classes I was teaching yesterday.
The analogy (because I know Glorianny will find it difficult to understand) is that making females compete against cheating males is as unfair as racing Y6 (or Y5, Y4 etc) against Y1.
It’s nothing to do with age really. It’s to do with the fact that Y6 have advantages that Y1 can’t possibly have, in the same way that males having passed through puberty have advantages that females can’t have.

Actually, Glorianny’s tinkering is a perfect example of what TW are attempting to do-*twist the system to suit themselves* but her prejudices won’t let her accept that.
Males are not female.
Carry on with your prejudice Glorianny.
Trans Women Are Transwomen.

I did not propose anything of the sort. Please stop twisting what I say.

I pointed out that allowing male-bodied athletes to compete against female ones is akin to doing so, and from other comments in my posts I would have thought it was obvious that I would not support unfairness like that at any level. That is not prejudice, it is about ensuring fairness.

Of course the fastest young children will overtake the slowest older ones - that is not the point. The point is to ensure that the race is not rigged by having the strong race the weak overall. Outliers will always be the exceptions that prove the rule. In this case, the fact that Glorianny's school 'carefully orchestrated' the process proves without doubt that tinkering with who competes against whom will affect the result.

It's gone back to sex segregated sports in many cases now as more bodies realise the madness of it, there are still a few, but I would guess legal actions will solve those issues.

OMG no one (except perhaps Doodledog) has proposed that year. 1 race against year 6. I did point out that sports days I have participated in were carefully orchestrated so that even the slowest have the opportunity of winning. I did point out that the fastest in one year group would overtake the slowest in at least one and probably two years above them. That's been ignored.
Carry on with your prejudice

As for a trans category with one entrant. That's the whole point. Trans people are a minority. There are not enough of them to justify a class of their own. Sport needs to recognise them and to accommodate them.
And using the designation of birth sex doesn't work.

So you are now agreeing testosterone does give benefits that would be unfair on female competitors!
I said no such thing Rosie51 I asked for your views on a hypothetical situation. Thanks for the answer which seems to indicate that you think the benefits of testosterone are limited. So a transman who built up muscle and strength might maintain that strength and still compete as a woman.

I really don't think that the solution to this is as clear as some have indicated and there is research which indicates that the solution will not be a ruling for sport as a whole but individual rules for different events.
It certainly won't prevent transpeople participating on an equal basis in sport as some seem to require or restrict them to trans only events.

I wonder what they would think of teachers who peddle nonsense in the name of equality?

I'm sure that even the youngest children would realise that there are huge differences between equity, equality and justice, even if they couldn't articulate them yet.

That's encouraging Mollygo those children have an understanding of fair play that so many adults seem not to comprehend.

Doodledog

Mollygo
Doodledog I’ll ask the children when I’m teaching tomorrow. I wonder what their response will be.
Good idea. I don’t think it is a difficult concept - different bodies have different properties, so different chances of winning.*^Of course you can’t measure every single attribute (and why would you want to?) but unless you want the 11 year olds to win every time you build in ways to make it fairer and therefore more sporting. Unless you care more about the older children than the younger ones, anyway.

Do let us know what they say.
Children I asked today, Y6 and Y1
Y6 would you like to race against Y1 or Y2 on Sports day?
There responses were what you’d expect from reasonable people.

Immediate response was that
it wouldn’t be fair.
Other comments
Well we’d always win, so that’d be good.
That earned a few laughs🤣🤣🤣.
(Comment on that from another child,) Yeah but we’d look pathetic if we won against the little ones.
My dad would be in to see XXX (the head).
No, it wouldn’t be fair?
My sister would be really upset if she had to race against me.
We aren’t going to do that, are we?

Year 1 at first thought I meant Y6 running with them, because older children do sometimes run with the younger ones, the more timid, or sometimes with those with issues. It gives them confidence, and encourages them to take part.
When they grasped I meant they would race against the year 6, and whoever won would get the ‘top card’, they just said that it wasn’t fair because the year 6 would always win.

Before you ask, I didn’t bring sex into the discussion.

Interestingly, even the children, who joked that it would be a good idea to race against the younger children because they’d always win, understood the concept of fairness.
Shame TW don’t have the same basic understanding.

The only thing that would stop transmen competing in female competitions is the fact that they’re taking drugs. Taking drugs is not allowed.
Still waiting for your evidence of the vast number of transmen who have entered male sporting competitions and won medals to the detriment of the male competitors, who have trained long and hard in order to compete.
If no evidence appears, I can only presume that was another fantasy diversion on Glorianny’s part.

If a transman was to suspend his testosterone for the period of competition should he then be allowed to compete against women no matter what benefit the testosterone has already given him? So you are now agreeing testosterone does give benefits that would be unfair on female competitors!! Obviously if there was any thought of allowing a transman to compete in the female category the abstinence from testosterone supplementation would have to be for at least a year or two, and they would need random testing during that period before being allowed to return to competition at the end of that time.

I don't think transwomen are men I know they are male, and have benefitted from male puberty. What makes you think transpeople might never win in the open category, because you don't mind males winning in the female category? As you're so worried about men being in the open category lets go crazy and have four categories.....female, male, transwomen, and transmen. That keeps the sexes in competition with their own sex while acknowledging their preferred presentation.

There was a swimming event organised recently where ther was a transgender category... not one single entrant, but the opportunity was there.

Why does it matter what people think they are? It should be what they actually are that counts - male-bodied or female-bodied. That is what matters in sport.