Education versus money

Germanshepherdsmum

Where have I said that the binning of applications from graduates of some universities is evidence of my knowledge of the value of higher education? It is evidence of the lack of value of some degrees from some institutions, and I have been careful to emphasise that my experience is solely of the legal profession.

You would have everyone go to university for the experience at the expense of the state, regardless of academic ability and the degree furthering their career. I have said this is pure luxury which we cannot afford when so many old folk live on so little. If we weren’t doling out student loans to all and sundry - or worse, in your world just giving them the money - don’t you think there might be more to spend on other things? Though in fact everyone attending university is doing so at the expense of the state until their loan is repaid (which will never happen in a large proportion of cases). Money down the proverbial drain. The local economy benefiting from the spending of the student population is a poor reason to argue that everyone should go to university if they want to, regardless of reason and ability.

Maybe A levels aren't really much use. Let's lower the school leaving age to 16. Open 6th form colleges which charge fees, offer 16-18 loans and save more money!

Some would do better still being able to leave school at 16 and getting started on the job ladder. A levels aren’t suitable for everyone and some made to sit them are destined to fail or get dismal grades - where’s the point in that? I have no problem with state education to 18 for those who will actually benefit from it - and that isn’t everyone. Finding a job in which you can progress and earn money is surely much better than being bottom of the class?

Germanshepherdsmum

Some would do better still being able to leave school at 16 and getting started on the job ladder. A levels aren’t suitable for everyone and some made to sit them are destined to fail or get dismal grades - where’s the point in that? I have no problem with state education to 18 for those who will actually benefit from it - and that isn’t everyone. Finding a job in which you can progress and earn money is surely much better than being bottom of the class?

So that's settled then no free education after 16. But why stop there? 14 year olds could be paying their way. Let's stop public education at 14. Charge fees after that and send those who can't afford it out to work.

I didn’t say that. I said I have no problem with state education to 18 for those who will actually benefit from it. Better that 16 year olds who aren’t academically inclined are able to get a job rather than messing around at the back of the classroom or bunking off and getting into trouble.

What would be the purpose of education between 16 and 18 if it wasn’t to gain trade qualifications Germanshepherdsmum? I’m not clear what you see the benefit would be of obtaining A levels in academic subjects for those who won’t make the revised academic bar for entry to university.

Perhaps you have misunderstood me or I haven’t expressed myself clearly Casdon. I see no benefit in education beyond 16 for those who aren’t going to pass A levels, unless of course a vocational course which suits the pupil is available. I see no point in sitting A levels in academic subjects if the results are likely to gain the sitter nothing beyond feeling an abject failure.

There are thousands of pupils who prosper at A level who aren’t mature at 16 and don’t do particularly well in their GCSEs though. It’s only when children start to study the subjects that really interest them that you see what they are capable of. Some know early that they are best suited to a trade, leave school at 16 and that’s fine. It’s the middle group that I am concerned for in your vision.

Would they not have shown promise in the subjects they were interested in at GCSE level? And generally performed tolerably well in those subjects?

I know somebody who got 9 grade Cs at GCSE, passed them but only just, then went on to get 3 As at A level, he did Economics, History and English. I don’t think that’s unusual. A levels are where you really see who is academically gifted in my experience.

I know someone who didn't get any GCSEs or A levels. Went to a further ed college and did HNC, then on to university, Got a BA and went on to do a Masters.
The concept of writing some students off because they don't jump through the hoops at a certain age is so wrong.

One swallow does not a summer make Glorianny.

Casdon, whilst not great nine grade Cs is not indicative of someone who won’t do well at A level in three subjects of their own choosing,

I am another swallow and am sure there are plenty of us flying around.

Germanshepherdsmum

*Casdon*, whilst not great nine grade Cs is not indicative of someone who won’t do well at A level in three subjects of their own choosing,

Grade C has not existed for some time GSM. The scale is 1-9, with nine at the top.
There are plenty of other post-16 courses, you know.
educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2023/06/27/alternatives-to-a-levels-and-university-what-you-need-to-know/

I think Casdon was talking of the past. I don’t know about current gradings - my son sat GCSEs many years ago and got As and A*s, and I sat O levels when the grading was 1-7, 7 I think being a fail.

I think perhaps Casdon is in Wales where it is still A* etc. Yes 1-6/7 for O levels in my day too.

Mamie

I think perhaps Casdon is in Wales where it is still A* etc. Yes 1-6/7 for O levels in my day too.

You’re right Mamie, sorry if that was confusing.

Education isn’t a competition or a race.

Valuing education is really important in a progressive society

JaneJudge

Education isn’t a competition or a race.

Valuing education is really important in a progressive society

I couldn’t agree more.

The idea of only teaching people what will be financially useful to them is so very narrow. To take it to its logical conclusion we could ask whether people need to read and write these days? They can press a button and text is read to them, and you don’t even need specialist software to be able to dictate what you want to appear on a screen and print it or send it electronically using an avatar as an address. Think of the savings.

Enjoying books is an indulgence - why should taxpayers stump up to allow others to broaden their horizons in libraries? We could reduce the school leaving age radically, to ten or so, or we do away with schools altogether, other than using them to instil ‘British values’ which would teach everyone their place. Oh, except for the ‘bright’ of course, or those with sharp-elbowed parents who will ensure that their children will stay in education for as long as possible and benefit from the reduction in the number of qualified competitors for good jobs. They’d be set for life.

Valuing education of course, but in line with their achievements at 18, an apprenticeship with technical training is far more use than 3 yrs of academic training at university. It’s skilled technicians that the UK is short of not graduates, further education should be tailored much more to skills the country needs.

Far more use to whom? What happens when there are so many plumbers that they are paid minimum wage? Would you still want your grandchildren to train as one then?

If we use education as social engineering, who will decide which occupations have scarcity value and thus high rewards, and which should be flooded with trainees and low wages?

Mamie

Germanshepherdsmum

Casdon, whilst not great nine grade Cs is not indicative of someone who won’t do well at A level in three subjects of their own choosing,

Grade C has not existed for some time GSM. The scale is 1-9, with nine at the top.
There are plenty of other post-16 courses, you know.
educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2023/06/27/alternatives-to-a-levels-and-university-what-you-need-to-know/

Yes, still A* to G in Wales.

Mamie I'll show my age when I say GCEs were graded 1-9 when I took them - with 1 being the top grade.

It seems a very odd system where a 9 is the top and a 1 is the bottom grade.

Yes, I did a couple of O levels early and the grades were numbers. The rest were done when I was 16, by which time the system had changed to letters. People often (well, as often as these things come up in conversation, anyway!) assumed that the numbers were CSE O level equivalents, to the fury of my mum, who corrected them every time

Doodledog

Far more use to whom? What happens when there are so many plumbers that they are paid minimum wage? Would you still want your grandchildren to train as one then?

If we use education as social engineering, who will decide which occupations have scarcity value and thus high rewards, and which should be flooded with trainees and low wages?

So you think that the graduates that don’t find graduate posts are better off with no marketable skills after gaining a £50k student loan, never having done any gainful work. When they could have become a skilled electrician, secretary, accounts technician, car mechanic or plumber. All skills that enable a good lifestyle, all are in short supply and we bring workers in from overseas to fill.

The government would decide which skills are needed and enable training at a technical level not a academic level

No-one ever mentions farming.
Is that considered a vocation?