Education versus money

Germanshepherdsmum

We must agree to disagree Doodledog. You are far more supportive than I am of the predicted 59% who will not repay their student loans. It must be wonderful to do what pleases you and ignore your debt to the taxpayer.

How wonderful for you too, Glorianny. I hope the teachers have all repaid their loans.

Why should they have to repay?
If someone does a job which is of social value and isn't paid a lot is that their fault?
Society does not financially recompense people according to the amount they contribute to it.

Germanshepherdsmum

I have already said that I didn’t go to university, though I had the offer of a place at Cambridge. People with low A level grades who go to a third rate university and study an airy fairy subject I don’t consider well educated.

My daughter studied an airy fairy subject - English & History at a university which is formerly a polytechnic. It was tough at first but she managed to get into product management.

She is very creative, her job involves creating a new range of products for this international global company she works for.
Together with the designers, mostly from technical or engineering background since they use cutting edge technology such as AI technology, they bring her ideas to fruition and get the factories in China and Asia to create these products. She must make sure that these products are commercially viable.

I will not consider her as uneducated or belonging to the great unwashed. [smile}

Germanshepherdsmum

We must agree to disagree Doodledog. You are far more supportive than I am of the predicted 59% who will not repay their student loans. It must be wonderful to do what pleases you and ignore your debt to the taxpayer.

How wonderful for you too, Glorianny. I hope the teachers have all repaid their loans.

I am supportive of education for those who want it, yes.

Not everyone does, which doesn’t make them lesser, but I believe that education is a good thing, both for the individual and for the country as a whole, and don’t believe that it should incur a debt to the taxpayer.

It's very easy for those of us who were awarded a top academic degree from a prestigious university to pontificate. I do it myself occasionally. But we should be mindful of the fact that even a lesser university education will one day seep into other areas of one's life, and enrichen society as a whole.

I am less convinced than many about ’top’ and ‘lesser’ degrees, having worked in the sector for many years, and seen RG, ‘plate glass’ and ‘new’ universities at first hand, both as a student, a member of staff and an External Examiner. I have seen this over decades, so don’t base my comments on a snapshot of my own student experience or the vicarious experience of when my children were students.

I am not denying that snobbery exists, but I can’t justify it on academic grounds. The biggest difference is that in RG universities (which get a lot more money for research projects) staff have less contact with students. The standards of teaching, feedback and student support are broadly similar, with any differences being because of differences in individuals rather than systemic ones. Even there, what used to be a noticeable gap between the level of contact and engagement between staff and students (at undergraduate level at least) has narrowed. It used to be significantly higher in new universities but as pressure to compete has increased it has lessened, to the detriment of all.

As a very broad generalisation, I would say that students in RG universities are probably from wealthier backgrounds, so are correspondingly more confident and articulate, but not necessarily more intelligent or conscientious. At new universities the chances are greater that more students will have to work to earn money as well as on their studies. This makes it harder for them, but they are often better at time management and dealing with stress.

Most of us change a lot between 18 and 21 or so - maybe more than at any other point in our lives. It isn’t easy to predict how someone will mature in that time using A level results as a benchmark. There are far too many variables.

For many, getting a degree is an end in itself, but doesn't guarantee a good job. It simply demonstrates that the holder has reached a certain level.
Doing a college course is probably of better use, depending on your talents.

Thanks Doodledog that is really interesting. My eldest granddaughter is in her final year at an RG university and we have been surprised at how much less direct contact she gets than when we and her parents were at university. Fortunately she is pretty self-motivated.
What shocks me about this whole discussion is that some people don't seem to think a deeper understanding of media and communications is necessary or important. That seems incredibly dangerous in the world in which we live.

Mamie

Thanks Doodledog that is really interesting. My eldest granddaughter is in her final year at an RG university and we have been surprised at how much less direct contact she gets than when we and her parents were at university. Fortunately she is pretty self-motivated.
What shocks me about this whole discussion is that some people don't seem to think a deeper understanding of media and communications is necessary or important. That seems incredibly dangerous in the world in which we live.

I do agree that education is very important and it is the key to many careers, to get a good degree have to be very self motivation to do well at university. It’s not like school, nobody is going to push you, nobody is going to chase you if you don’t attend a lecture, mum is not there for a shoulder to cry on or do your washing. Unfortunately many enroll just for the party times, the Uni Experience and have no real expectation of paying back the student loan, the are actually told if you can’t pay it back you don’t have to - no consquenses.

Those with a good degree have worked hard, a 2.2 in anything or even a 2.1 in a poor subject and you are going struggle to get the job you dream of

No disrespect meant, Katie, but where are you getting this information from? Are you aware, for instance that the Borders Agency requires attendance figures for lectures and seminars? This can't be targeted at international students, so all students are monitored. Lack of attendance can trigger action from student services (or something else, depending on how the individual university is structured). A failure to be aware of things like patterns of attendance can have consequences if a student has MH issues which cause them problems. It's not a case of 'nobody's going to chase you if you don't attend'.

Mums doing washing, and students choosing universities for parties are tropes that may have been true in the 70s, but students now are far more focussed on results than they were 'in my day'. Many believe the propaganda that if they don't get a First they won't get a job, but it's not true beyond the first job. After that, it's experience and results that make the difference, but try telling that to a student whose parents keep reminding them of their debt and don't understand the subject matter of their degree, so fill them with doubt about its value.

I'm sure most 'helicopter' parents hover out of love, but they do their children a huge disservice by wanting to know every mark, having an opinion on every aspect of a course they haven't taken, and generally thinking that they know how everything could be improved whilst knowing nothing about the constraints of the system.

How do you know the intentions of university applicants? I very much doubt that people enrol 'with no intention' of paying their loans - most have a hugely inflated idea about what getting a degree will mean. It will give them the chance to compete with other bright young things to carve out a career, which is all they should expect, IMO. The days when a degree was a passport to a good job for life are long gone, and I don't mourn them, as they excluded more people than they benefited.

That isn't the point I was making Katie59. I am talking about actual contact time, lectures, tutorials, seminars etc. not student motivation. I have no idea how many students go just to party. At nine thousand pounds a year, plus incredibly expensive housing and living costs I would have thought students would want to get everything they can out of it.
I know a lot of my granddaughter's friends are really struggling to live from day to day, given the cost of rentals, heating and food. .

Mamie I think you are wrong when you say "students would want to get everything they can out of it" - no, I think it's afterwards they (often) feel they could have done much more.

I only say this from what is said by my own family and retuning "ex students" who may have revisited my husband and I whilst we were both working on campuses (one RG one not).

I think students are less invested in their degree (on the whole) than they were years ago as it is an expectation that anyone reasonably bright should have a degree these days. It's like the expectation that you would do A levrls years ago.

Mamie

That isn't the point I was making Katie59. I am talking about actual contact time, lectures, tutorials, seminars etc. not student motivation. I have no idea how many students go just to party. At nine thousand pounds a year, plus incredibly expensive housing and living costs I would have thought students would want to get everything they can out of it.
I know a lot of my granddaughter's friends are really struggling to live from day to day, given the cost of rentals, heating and food. .

The very fact that they can avoid the world of work for 3 yrs away from home with no consequences is very attractive at 17 or 18. In addition education system greatly inflates their abilities and prospects of success.

I would agree with your last paragraph Notspaghetti.

The experience is often less to do with learning and more to do with partying,
After starting work at 15 and changing jobs a few times I got the opportunity to study for a degree in my late 30 s. It was very noticeable that those who hadn’t drifted into it after O snd A levels worked harder and got better degrees because we appreciated the chance we had been given.
When I studied in the 80s, only 6% of people had a degree. Firsts were as rare as hens teeth. 2.1s were brilliantly exceptional, 2.2s were most common snd very acceptable, thirds were a bit embarrassing but not the end of the world.
Now nothing less than a first is seen as success.
On that note I am always surprised at all the grands here who must be a similar age to me who went to university.
I don’t remember knowing anyone who had been onto higher or even further education. We all left school at 15 or if we were ‘clever’ ‘Stayed on ‘ til 16 to take a few O levels,
After my degree I took O and A levels, better late than never,

NotSpaghetti

Mamie I think you are wrong when you say "students would want to get everything they can out of it" - no, I think it's afterwards they (often) feel they could have done much more.

I only say this from what is said by my own family and retuning "ex students" who may have revisited my husband and I whilst we were both working on campuses (one RG one not).

I think students are less invested in their degree (on the whole) than they were years ago as it is an expectation that anyone reasonably bright should have a degree these days. It's like the expectation that you would do A levrls years ago.

You missed out the bit where I said "I would have thought" from that quote NotSpaghetti. I can only go by the experience of my granddaughter and her friends, many of whom have chosen degrees with a clear vocational pathway.
I haven't done a survey of hundreds of students!

a 2.2 in anything or even a 2.1 in a poor subject and you are going struggle to get the job you dream of

In addition education system greatly inflates their abilities and prospects of success.

Which of these statements do you think is true, Katie?

Sorry Mamie I would have thought you are wrong though nevertheless.

How many people ever get the job they dream of?

If they do, then how does the reality match the dream?

I used to know a bin man and a road sweeper who had degrees. They thought they were doing a valuable job which benefited society and were happy. They didn't buy into the concept that the purpose of education is to make sure you earn more. I actually think it's very much a post 1980s concept, before that lots of people went to university just to learn.

One of the refuse collectors in Cardiff had a PhD.
I'm not sure if he's still doing the same job.

It does, however, make me wonder about all that education being wasted and the fact he took up a place which may have benefited someone else and society in general more.

Perhaps he had a breakdown? Lots of people do. I knew a chap who had a good degree from Cambridge, where he had lots of contact with his tutor, but he couldn’t cope with the pressure of studying for his Law Society exams without that tutorial system. He became a solicitor’s clerk, which was such a waste of his abilities.

Some people are weird. My cousin got a chemical engineering degree from Swansea and decided to become a milkman for a decade back in 1980s.

When I went to university in 1968 the distractions were demonstrations and Maoism. The past is another country, they do things differently there.....

Germanshepherdsmum

Perhaps he had a breakdown? Lots of people do. I knew a chap who had a good degree from Cambridge, where he had lots of contact with his tutor, but he couldn’t cope with the pressure of studying for his Law Society exams without that tutorial system. He became a solicitor’s clerk, which was such a waste of his abilities.

No, I don't think so.

In any job there will be some one who cannot hack it for a number of reasons. It is no more remarkable if occasionally a graduate does than if a gas fitter does it.

A friend of mine, some years ago, trained as a science teacher and chose after a year to simply become a Lab assistant in the same school. She said she couldn't cope with the responsibilties that came with being a teacher.

A scientist friend who was cherry picked as a young man to worked in (high level and secret) research in America jacked it in after just a few years. He said the "lack of moral compass" in his specialist area made him concerned for the world.

He went into restoration and preservation of old buildings - and beekeeping.

I don't believe his degrees were wasted. I'm sure he didn't.

I'm sure the milkman, taxi drivers and bin people don't regret their degrees either.

Don't forget that what you do to earn a living isn't who you are.