A four-day week will soon be the norm in the public sector.

I really don't think that is the case though. There seem to be far more comments suggesting that Other People won't be able to manage their time so that it works. It always sounds like sour grapes. The OP is asking whether if staff are working 4 day weeks residents should only pay 80% of their CT bills, which says it all. The suggestion is that only 80% of the work will be done, whereas people would either be cutting hours and more would be employed, or they would be adjusting their working days to better suit their home/life balance, so there is no need for employers or customers/clients to lose out.

I simply get annoyed by the assumptions that it can work for everyone if they think flexibly and manage their time properly. It can’t. Those for whom it can work, without impinging on the level of service they are paid to provide, are fortunate.

GSM - you have made it clear that working in this way would not have worked for you. It would not have worked for me, either, as the first duty of a Headteacher is to be there, in my opinion.
However, as I pointed out on my previous post, it can work for some , and, in the example quoted, in the private as well as the public sector. Why should this trouble us?

Hospital doctors seem to work much longer hours than the GPs you visit in clinics. Nearly all of those are part time here. Maybe it is different in the UK ? Typically a Practice has at least 6 doctors, all part timers. Many have a lot more. They share the receptionists and nurses. I can’t think of any that work alone round here though it is different in the country areas because they can’t get anyone to work there.

Doodledog

Urmstongran

and agency nurses pick up a lot of work, so there are clearly no issues there.

Hmm. Just eye watering rates of pay… have you seen what their agency shifts cost the NHS? It’s mind blowing. Many nurses ‘retire’ at 55y to collect their (very good) private pensions, then sign on with an agency to ‘top up’. It’s very lucrative work. A nurse that I know goes in 2 overnights a MONTH and is delighted with her wage packet.

That is the fault of the system, not the fact that people are working different hours. There used to be a nurse bank that worked well, before Jeremy Hunt outsourced to agencies. The principle of flexible hours is not the problem.

A nurse mentioned to me that, although he worked for the NHS, he was also enrolled with an agency and was coming back to do his own job when he was taking leave.
He said a lot of nurses did that.

Urmstongran

^and agency nurses pick up a lot of work, so there are clearly no issues there.^

Hmm. Just eye watering rates of pay… have you seen what their agency shifts cost the NHS? It’s mind blowing. Many nurses ‘retire’ at 55y to collect their (very good) private pensions, then sign on with an agency to ‘top up’. It’s very lucrative work. A nurse that I know goes in 2 overnights a MONTH and is delighted with her wage packet.

That is the fault of the system, not the fact that people are working different hours. There used to be a nurse bank that worked well, before Jeremy Hunt outsourced to agencies. The principle of flexible hours is not the problem.

Germanshepherdsmum

A five day week would have been bliss Doodledog. maddy understands the demands as she said above. Btw I have never described myself as ‘important’. I have simply given a flavour of what my work entailed.

Yes, that was my mistake. I conflated the job and the person in one sentence, as I was distracted half way through typing it. I realised when I read it back, but couldn't edit. No offence intended.

Casdon

Callistemon21

The one that springs to my mind is Radiography, where they routinely do late nights and early mornings
That was the department I was referring to in my post above. 12 hour days, then asked to go in early the next morning because so many people had left through stress. Consequently more left and found jobs elsewhere.

It wasn't working.

I think that’s a different issue though. In shortage professions where there aren’t enough staff to cover the rota, however many hours people work they will be under pressure. The departments I’m thinking about had voted for the revised rotas themselves because they could see that would work - and there was accordingly a low turnover because they were happy with it. I think if management try to impose different working hours on teams it always results in issues, whereas if staff opt for it they will do their utmost to make sure it works for the service.

Yes, I remember years ago a new and very keen manager trying to impose new working routes on nursing staff in a particular hospital; the rota had worked perfectly well for years, those who preferred weekends/nights were doing so and others preferred days. The new manager wanted everyone to work a mix of days, weekends and nights. They all dug their heels in and the new rota was abandoned.

and agency nurses pick up a lot of work, so there are clearly no issues there.

Hmm. Just eye watering rates of pay… have you seen what their agency shifts cost the NHS? It’s mind blowing. Many nurses ‘retire’ at 55y to collect their (very good) private pensions, then sign on with an agency to ‘top up’. It’s very lucrative work. A nurse that I know goes in 2 overnights a MONTH and is delighted with her wage packet.

Callistemon21

^The one that springs to my mind is Radiography, where they routinely do late nights and early mornings^
That was the department I was referring to in my post above. 12 hour days, then asked to go in early the next morning because so many people had left through stress. Consequently more left and found jobs elsewhere.

It wasn't working.

I think that’s a different issue though. In shortage professions where there aren’t enough staff to cover the rota, however many hours people work they will be under pressure. The departments I’m thinking about had voted for the revised rotas themselves because they could see that would work - and there was accordingly a low turnover because they were happy with it. I think if management try to impose different working hours on teams it always results in issues, whereas if staff opt for it they will do their utmost to make sure it works for the service.

The one that springs to my mind is Radiography, where they routinely do late nights and early mornings
That was the department I was referring to in my post above. 12 hour days, then asked to go in early the next morning because so many people had left through stress. Consequently more left and found jobs elsewhere.

It wasn't working.

A five day week would have been bliss Doodledog. maddy understands the demands as she said above. Btw I have never described myself as ‘important’. I have simply given a flavour of what my work entailed.

maddyone

So yesterday we had cause to phone a company that has been extremely inefficient in sorting out something relating to my mother’s death, which happened in 2022. We asked for certain information, the response was ‘I can’t tell you that because I’m at home, I’d need to be in the office to be able to give you that information.’

I don’t agree with civil servants working from home. They should be in the office or wherever they work from, doing their jobs. And no, they shouldn’t be working a four day week unless they are classed as part time, and therefore paid part time rates of pay.

How would everyone feel about doctors, nurses, or teachers working only four days?
No, thought not!

I think that being at home is no excuse for not having information. WFH should be contingent on having access to everything you need to be able to actually work from home. Where you can do so though (eg by having access to systems remotely) then I see no reason why you shouldn't.

My GP works 2 days a week. It's a nuisance, as he likes me to see him about a particular issue, and I prefer to do so too, as he is aware of all the nuances and it saves me having to keep explaining. There are other GPs available if I need them though, although getting an appointment with any of them is difficult. If I want to see mine I have to wait weeks, which only works as my condition is chronic and not life threatening.

Teachers often job share, and agency nurses pick up a lot of work, so there are clearly no issues there.

GSM, we get the message . High powered, intellectually challenging, important and extremely well paid people such as yourself couldn't work a 4 day week. But if everyone wanted those jobs they wouldn't be so well paid. A lot of people prefer a better work/life balance, and why not? I would be the first to complain if someone I employed or managed didn't get the job done, but I can't see why it matters whether they do it over 4 days or 5 if (a) they do everything they are paid for, (b) they can do it efficiently, and (c) there is someone competent available all week for any public-facing contact.

maddyone

I know that Casdon and that’s exactly my point. Doctors and nurses can’t work a four day week.

It’s actually works really well for nurses, department dependent. It improves continuity of care on wards for short stay patients, and for day surgery for example, and it also works well in departments with a lot of part time staff. The one that springs to my mind is Radiography, where they routinely do late nights and early mornings. It’s also necessary in departments which use expensive equipment because it maximises the time the equipment is operational. I’m not aware of any doctors who work rostered four day weeks, so I can’t comment on that - but there are a lot of doctors who opt to work part time hours by choice.

maddyone

Whitewavemark2

Our GP and much if the staff work a 4 day week.

GPs work a four day week because they work 12 hour days. Despite what many Gransnetters believe.

Correct. And those other people working a 4 day week are also putting a full week worth of hours.

Whitewavemark2

Our GP and much if the staff work a 4 day week.

GPs work a four day week because they work 12 hour days. Despite what many Gransnetters believe.

^We asked for certain information, the response was ‘I can’t tell you that because I’m at home, I’d need to be in the office to be able to give you that information.^’

That's what happened to me, maddyone. I had a rather unusual question, the person WFH told me I had to fill in forms and apply in writing; he couldn't access the forms but would action this when he went back into the office (touched base as it's known now). Three weeks later I received the forms but then found I could have completed the process online - which I did, so much easier. He obviously didn't know that.

The problem with working a four day week is that it might mean job-sharing so that someone else is covering the work when you are not there. It might work in some spheres, others not so well.

How tiring would four consecutive 10 hour days be? I know a medical professional who was working 10 hour days and, because of the shortages due to stress, was then asked to return on days off because their department would not be staffed.

How difficult would childcare be?

If that makes me seem conservative with a c or a C so be it. I prefer to believe I am thinking about the practicalities.

I know that Casdon and that’s exactly my point. Doctors and nurses can’t work a four day week.

With regard to a legal career, GSM is right. My son is a barrister and is frequently called by clients at the weekend, and on holiday. His clients expect him to be available to them and although it isn’t always convenient, he makes himself available as and when it is needed. He also works long hours, way over four days a week, in order to do his job properly.

The public service is notoriously inefficient. Perhaps they should be in the office for their contracted hours and perhaps they might be a little more efficient.

Our GP and much if the staff work a 4 day week.

People should not wfh unless they are able to do the job properly maddy, whether public or private sector. If I was wfh I had full access to all necessary documents and correspondence (filed digitally) and all the online resources which lawyers use.

maddyone

So yesterday we had cause to phone a company that has been extremely inefficient in sorting out something relating to my mother’s death, which happened in 2022. We asked for certain information, the response was ‘I can’t tell you that because I’m at home, I’d need to be in the office to be able to give you that information.’

I don’t agree with civil servants working from home. They should be in the office or wherever they work from, doing their jobs. And no, they shouldn’t be working a four day week unless they are classed as part time, and therefore paid part time rates of pay.

How would everyone feel about doctors, nurses, or teachers working only four days?
No, thought not!

Many nurses and other healthcare clinical staff work over 4 days already, 10 or 12 hour shifts have been common in the NHS for years. Many opt for it because due to the salaries they are on, they can’t afford childcare if they work over 5 days, and of course they get to spend an extra day with their family.

JRSmogg has dictated to the civil service before he was relegated to the back benches, that WAH is no longer an option.

I live next door to a relatively senior civil servant, who works at the Home Office. She has a dedicated office at home, and only going into London when necessary. Because of Smogg”s dictate
she now spends hours of travel each day with all the environmental implications and time spent travelling when she was previously working. Also taking in the added stress etc - the whole policy is sheer bleddin’ madness.

There are areas of law in which flexible working is possible ronib, as I have said - but if you want the big-ticket commercial work, which is intellectually challenging and very lucrative, effectively you are your clients’ servant and you work the hours necessary to do the job within the deadline set (usually highly unrealistic but they know you will meet it because you want their continued instructions). If you want a fairly quiet life which doesn’t encroach on your free time you work in a high street firm for Joe Public for not a lot of money.

So yesterday we had cause to phone a company that has been extremely inefficient in sorting out something relating to my mother’s death, which happened in 2022. We asked for certain information, the response was ‘I can’t tell you that because I’m at home, I’d need to be in the office to be able to give you that information.’

I don’t agree with civil servants working from home. They should be in the office or wherever they work from, doing their jobs. And no, they shouldn’t be working a four day week unless they are classed as part time, and therefore paid part time rates of pay.

How would everyone feel about doctors, nurses, or teachers working only four days?
No, thought not!