Realism V Idealism

Did you know you can mate a zebra with a donkey and get a zonkey? But I don’t think zonkeys can mate with one another. I will check and report back

Very trusting people here. I wouldn’t let just anyone be a gardener and have access to my property. They would need references and recommendations. I would call that realism.

Germanshepherdsmum

And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.

No, it is the kind of work which needs doing and which keeps people off the streets. It gives people a purpose and an opportunity to meet with other people. It doesn't need skilled people to do it and the skills needed can easily be taught on the job.

Many asylum seekers want to study, if given the opportunity. Of course they wouldn't all go on to be skilled horticulturalists, but if granted asylum so they could actually study and work, they might even end up in a house with a garden. Meanwhile, they're being offered a reason to get out of bed. Many asylum seekers suffer from depression from having little hope or purpose.

It's not idealism to write about something which is already happening on a small scale.

I think I’m a realistic optimist, where that fits on the “idealistic” scale I’ve no idea but it means I have hope. I certainly couldn’t live without that!

Katie590

The problem with being an idealist must be you are constantly worrying about the imperfect way we treat each other, that must affect the mental health of many.

I’m a realist I cannot change the world all I can do is be as nice to those close to me as possible, mostly that is reciprocated.

To be fair Katie, very few people are just one thing, most of us have a leaning towards either realism or idealism, but also have a bit of other things too and are quite balanced.

I agree we need both, one cannot successfully exist without the other!

Idealists tend to have vision, imagination, foresight and optimism, but can let their ideas “run away with them”, they need realists to “keep them on track” and for some practical guidance.

I agree that we need aspiration as well as practicality.

Idealism is about having a vision of what could be; realists acknowledge the steps that might/could/should be taken to achieve the idealist's aims. Surely the idea of a health service free at the point of delivery was only achievable in reality when there was the power to accomplish it.

Re my last post: Jesus did teach, and demonstrate, a better way of living (‘love your neighbour’). But he also recognised that people are imperfect and will often fail (and need forgiveness).

flappergirl

Is this thread solely about immigration and I didn't get the memo? Either way, we obviously need both idealists and realists. Jesus was an idealist, Nye Bevan was an idealist. The human brain is hot wired for inspiration, not just pragmatism. As a species we have never restricted ourselves to existing knowledge and the "tried and tested", that is our strength.

Man cannot live by bread alone.

Jesus was an idealist.

I’m not sure Jesus could be called an idealist.

‘Idealist: a person who is guided more by ideals than by practical considerations.’
- Oxford Languages

‘… many people saw the signs he was performing and believed in his name. But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all people. He did not need any testimony about mankind, for he knew what was in each person.’
- John 2.23-25

Jesus knew that there is evil in the human heart.

He was also practical. After raising a 12 year old girl from the dead, he told her parents to give her something to eat (Mark 5.43).

Man cannot live on bread alone, ‘but on every word that comes from the mouth of God’ (Matthew 4.4).

The problem with being an idealist must be you are constantly worrying about the imperfect way we treat each other, that must affect the mental health of many.

I’m a realist I cannot change the world all I can do is be as nice to those close to me as possible, mostly that is reciprocated.

Sorry employers not employees! Didn’t sleep well and need more coffe!

Oreo

Often, threads are started cos posters didn’t get the response they were really hoping for on a previous thread.
Y’know, idealists good/ realists bad kind of thing.It’s great to have ideals while keeping in touch with reality imo.

Thanks Oreo!

Honestly, I sometimes wonder what’s made some of you such cynics, and a little rude to boot.

I started this thread, as others have started threads, to have a debate about something that interests me, and yes of course it’s tied in with another thread where I suggested “temporary unskilled work for Asylum Seekers”, whilst they are waiting for their cases to be processed.

I still think it’s a good idea and could work in certain circumstances. It would give them a sense of purpose, keep them off the streets for a couple of hours, allow them to learn about their community, improve their use of English.

It’s doesn’t matter to me that some of you don’t agree, ts absolutely fine.

I have 14 years of experience placing the most difficult people into jobs and dealing with employees, prior to this I worked in the private sector in many different roles including hiring.

I wish you all a great Friday and a good weekend

I didn’t say you did! I was referring to zakouma’s posts.

Germanshepherdsmum

And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.

Morning GSM I don’t recall EVER saying that!

Casdon

Just to clarify for anybody in doubt, being liberal and being an idealist are not the same thing.

They are also not the same as “bleeding hearts” Can we not have a balanced sensible debate without someone throwing in phrases like this and “snowflake” “virtual signalling” “lefties, loonies, left leaning”

Honestly, sometimes it’s like being in the school playground!

Idealists seem to live in a fantasy world, even when events are not living up to their expectations. Many people exist in their own little bubble, seeing things as they want them to be. Fine, except when they try to force their fantasies on the rest of us.

And that sort of experience will turn asylum seekers into skilled gardeners who can support themselves financially? Dream on.

Is this thread solely about immigration and I didn't get the memo? Either way, we obviously need both idealists and realists. Jesus was an idealist, Nye Bevan was an idealist. The human brain is hot wired for inspiration, not just pragmatism. As a species we have never restricted ourselves to existing knowledge and the "tried and tested", that is our strength.

Man cannot live by bread alone.

Silly me, heres a little anecdote. A large Church near me had a very overgrown garden, a sad sight. The gravestones disappearing under weeds, filthy area. The vicar arranged a working party made up of local people, Church people and people seeking asylum who were housed locally.

It was a tremendous success.

What a silly comment.

Germanshepherdsmum

Idealists have their place but some of their suggestions are hopelessly impractical. For instance some of the suggestions about how unskilled immigrants can earn a living, doing jobs which are so poorly paid that they will be reliant on benefits and/or have a side hustle in the black economy. I believe you suggested they might be gardeners, for instance, despite lacking horticultural knowledge or tools. And if they’re paid cash in hand do you believe they would declare their earnings?

Seriously, this is all you can think about? Fear of immigrants becoming unskilled gardeners and using a hoe instead of a rake?

Germanshepherdsmum

I would like to see Glorianny’s evidence that the employment of asylum seekers is ‘highly desirable’ for ‘many’ small business owners. What sort of small business owners and what makes asylum seekers such ‘highly desirable’ employees ? Or is it just a figment of the imagination?

Wishful thinking !!

Here we go again. Why do some posters have to sound so scornful of others's ideas.?

I would like to see Glorianny’s evidence that the employment of asylum seekers is ‘highly desirable’ for ‘many’ small business owners. What sort of small business owners and what makes asylum seekers such ‘highly desirable’ employees ? Or is it just a figment of the imagination?

Oreo

Glorianny

Germanshepherdsmum

Remind me, Glorianny, weren’t you a teacher? If so you probably didn’t employ people. I did, and I was a director of a construction company which employed people - a great many. I also acted for companies which were very significant employers, My experience is a great deal wider than you imagine. Don’t imagine that I just sat behind a desk preparing documents - you couldn’t be more wrong.

Well you seem to be singularly unaware that the employment of asylum seekers is not only viable but highly desirable for many small business owners.

Highly desirable? Doubtful, but if any small businesses really are dying to employ them it’s so they can pay as little as possible for maximum work.They know nothing about the asylum seekers yet are happy to employ them, hmmmm.

Haven't you heard about the minimum wage Oreo? It's what a lot of people in the service sector are paid anyway. Asylum seekers or not.