Dwp release results of pip claims study

If it’s a job you could do, you should apply for it.

Please tell me that you don’t use your garden as a lavatory.

Ilovecheese

What about the extensive medical knowledge as to which activities people with certain conditions are able to do.

It's certainly NOT extensive in the trained 'Health Professionals' who currently assess for the benefit, and certainly the new 'Work Coaches' won't have any!

Bizarrely that IS a job that I could potentially do, in the afternoons over the phone, lol, After taking 28 tablets a night plus a Fentanyl patch, I'm neither use nor ornament in the mornings. Trained nurse, extensive patient experience after 24 surgeries, about 20 different health conditions and experience of disability, BUT my conscience just wouldn't allow it, and my take home pay would be rubbish as I wouldn't get the bonuses for denying it ...!

MissAdventure

Perhaps "some people" would like to read it.
Straight from the horse's mouth.

PIP fraud 0%, from the DWP's own figures .... yet Mel Stride who lied to the public on tv recently about 'the disabled getting thousands of pounds a month' seems to think spending millions on reforming it, is a good idea?

If I did get 'thousands of pounds every month, then I'd be able to repair my toilet instead of having to use the garden because I can't get upstairs; I'd be able too put the heating on that hasn't been used for the past 2 winters; I could pay for my house to be cleaned, my bare plaster walls could be decorated; the leaking gutter that is causing my brickwork to go black could be sorted; my grass wouldn't be a foot long; my outside light would work because it needs a new bulb, and I'd be able to replace my oven that hasn't worked since October 2022! But sadly we don't get anywhere near that amount. In fact

They appear to think that giving someone an aid or adaptation is going to make folk not need money to live on, yet they can only assist us, nit take the disability away!

They are proposing giving us vouchers, but have yet to state what these vouchers are for and what you can buy with them?

Getting the benefit is extremely difficult, people are usually denied it, twice, but will get a fair hearing at a Tribunal, where 70% of the DWP's decisions are overturned. That says it all, but I believe that they are going to be doing away with the Tribunal service - the DWP will have more blood on it's hands.

I hope your username isn’t indicative of where you live. If it is, that’s quite a small place and you can be easily identified from the information you have given. I would advise you to ask to change it.

My daughter had her PIP stopped after a paper-based assessment. With the help of CAB she appealed and won after appearing remotely in front of a tribunal. Not only was her PIP backdated her daily living part was increased to the higher level so she now receives more than before the assessment.
You might pass her in the street and think there is nothing wrong but looks can be very deceptive.

She needs to reapply.
Its quite normal to be turned down at first, and a lot of people end up going to a tribunal.

My lovely hard working very responsible DDiL has a skeletal problem (long name I cant remember) since childhood. Works full time, looks after her two children & cannot give up work as my DS does not earn enough for her to do so! Twice she has been turned down for PIP simply because she copes thanks to a massive amount of medications that in themselves cause problems! If granted PIP would allow her to work part time with less daily stress, pain & meds. Because she copes & tries to hide how she feels she is left to get on with it while a friend of mine’s son brags about how he gets every benefit he can! Nothing wrong with him just lazy but who is going to tell tales? Life is very unfair!

Is DWP fit for purpose? It's beginning to seem like another Home Office.

Personally the sort of person who beats about getting undeserved benefits is trying to big themselves up to try and feel better about themselves, if they were deliberate criminals they'd keep their mouths shut. Very few criminals can jump through all the myriad hoops if a pip claim as they need to provide hard evidence to back up what they say. The low levels of fraud detected suggests to me that many who don't know how to use the system are not getting awards they should be entitled to. The amount of literacy and level of understanding of legal judgements you needs to claim successfully is beyond belief if you've not tried it.

M0nica

Dickens AA and PIP assessors are not meant to take what you suffer from into account when making decisions. The decision is meant to be based only on the extent of your disability, obviously the cause will hover in the background, but that is all.

In theory you could have nothing wrong with you beyond general frailty, and I did have clients like that, but if you are in danger of falling and could not get up without help, or it might be be fatal, if you need help with dressing and undressing and cannot bath/shower unaided, then you should qualify for AA, even though you have no identified health problem.

Thanks, MOnica - that's interesting, and explains a lot.

Dickens AA and PIP assessors are not meant to take what you suffer from into account when making decisions. The decision is meant to be based only on the extent of your disability, obviously the cause will hover in the background, but that is all.

In theory you could have nothing wrong with you beyond general frailty, and I did have clients like that, but if you are in danger of falling and could not get up without help, or it might be be fatal, if you need help with dressing and undressing and cannot bath/shower unaided, then you should qualify for AA, even though you have no identified health problem.

MissAdventure

There are almost zero recorded losses to the taxpayer due to fraud in the disability benefit benefits system, new statistics from the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) show.

Personal independence payment (PIP) fraud stood at 0% in the financial year ending 2024. Meanwhile, disability living allowance (DLA) fraud was just 0.1%, which was rounded to £0m.

It comes as the government continues its drive to tighten disability benefits, eradicate “sick-note culture” and crack down on fraud within the welfare system more widely.

Benefit reforms ‘entirely in the wrong direction’ to help disabled people into work, DWP warned
DWP sparks outcry with plan to hire 2,500 ‘agents’ to investigate universal credit claimants
Mikey Erhardt, campaigner at Disability Rights UK said: “New data shows what we, as disabled people, have known for years – PIP fraud is a non-issue. PIP fraud is now the lowest on record – despite the government placing fraud front and centre of their latest public announcements.”

PIP overpayments stood at 0.4%, which is the equivalent of £90m lost in a year. That is compared to 1.1% (£200m) in the financial year ending 2023, a significant decrease.

The majority of overpayments happened because of errors where the claimant did not report a change in their needs. Only one in 100 PIP claimants were overpaid

One of the reasons for PIP fraud decreasing is DEP have set up a new fraud team (just after lockdown ended), working alongside their other compliance and fraud teams, who are sent any potentially fraudulent claims at the application stage from PIP so some are “weeded” out at that stage.

Gillycats

I’m assuming you’ve reported these people committing benefit fraud??

I worked within this area for 14 years, (2009-2022), I can assure you it’s very much the minority who “fiddle” their benefits or are claiming the sickness element fraudulently.

The DWP very much err on the side of assuming someone IS fit for work now, rather than the other way round. That’s why there are now so many tribunal appeals, which can take up to a year to be heard. People have actually died in the meantime.

The country isn’t rife with benefit fraud, the majority of people claiming benefits aren’t “living”, they’re (just about) surviving!

For almost 5 years I undertook outreach work, I saw people in their own homes, I would not want to live like they did. No nails, eyelashes, contract phone, or 70” TVs for these folks, just worry about their electric running out and how they’d buy their kids next school uniform!

PIP is not a benefit to assess if a person is “fit for work”. Working and non working people claim PIP, it’s all about how your disability or condition affects your day to day living.

Germanshepherdsmum

The report is from the DWP. They talk of ‘recorded cases’ of fraud. What about the Bulgarian gang which was in the news a while ago? I wouldn’t trust the DWP on this.

Was the recorded fraud on PIP though or Universal Credit? They are two totally different departments, just like State Pensions, though all part of the bigger entity the DWP

M0nica

Cabbie21 Like you I have been a benefits advisor, in my case with the older people. I do not ever think I had an unjustifiable case, but I used to find that the DWP assessors were able to deal with simple cases - someone with severe arthritis for example, where the disability was easy to explain, but seemed completely incapable of dealing with complex cases, where someone had multiple health problems which affected them in complex ways.

These cases were more likely to be turned down than the simpler cases. Having said that I always took these cases to appeal and never once had one failed to get the benefit on appeal.

...but I used to find that the DWP assessors were able to deal with simple cases - someone with severe arthritis for example, where the disability was easy to explain, but seemed completely incapable of dealing with complex cases, where someone had multiple health problems which affected them in complex ways.

That does make sense - even your GP can be stumped by complex medical conditions in terms of understanding how you might be affected by them, or whether the symptoms you're explaining to him are connected or not. And bearing in mind that each person will experience their illness or disability differently, and that people's pain level tolerance varies, there's no set formula for an assessor to work from. I suppose the assessment is boiled down to the lowest common denominator?

When I was undergoing chemotherapy I soon realised that I wasn't affected as badly as some others who were having the same treatment. I watched one woman in the treatment-room having the same infusion as me, become more and more distressed and eventually vomit, whilst I hardly experienced a moment of nausea and was never physically sick. But the fatigue was something else, absolutely crushing - yet another woman told me about her 'exercise programme' (she was a keen 'keep-fit' type). I couldn't have managed any form of exercise, on the other hand, I had an enormous healthy appetite, whilst she said food all tasted like cardboard.

So how the heck do you assess people on their ability to work when in reality, no two people are alike who might be suffering from the same disease?

I suppose you design a system which awards points on very basic activities - if you can't do any of them because you are paralysed in a wheelchair, you get the full points awarded and are deemed unfit for work.

Can you wash and dress yourself - yes. Can you walk x number of metres - yes. Can you bend down and pick things up from the floor - yes. Can you do this, that and the other - yes, yes, yes.

... but I can only do them for about an hour because I have an infusion of poison coursing through my body which is not only destroying cancer cells but also my healthy cells that are growing and trying to divide to keep me alive. And there's no tick-box for that.

I have no idea how some are able to game the system yet others, very poorly people, are rejected. But obviously, it's possible and very prevalent - the number of posters on here who know so many people doing just that is testament to it.

Urmstongran

Very well illustrated Ohhowwelaughed. (I like your user name by the way my aunt used to make us laugh by saying that phrase occasionally!). Irrefutable anecdotes that stack up. I believe you. I know of one couple in Bristol who know how to game the system and over the years have done very well (their kids even gained Master degrees at no cost).

Thank you, I could name 3 in my local community without even thinking.

One that is my son's friend all through school and now mid 40s. Window cleaner or was until he fell off the ladder about 8 years ago.

Pretty bad at the time with various injuries and we were all worried for him. Now he has played on it and even gets meds he never takes.

The biggest one he now uses is he claims carers allowance so his 18 year old daughter doesn't need to go to college etc. She usually doesn't get up while 2 o clock and is out all hour with mates driving the country side.

How do I know all this? Because he sits in our house many an hour when my son calls and chats. Would I grass on him, hell no but I politely say to him don't come complaining when you can't get a doctor or hospital appointment in future.

BTW we have known this family for over 40 years. How could we ‘dob them in’? It might have got back to them so I never dared take the chance even though it really rankled - especially when our eldest daughter would have liked to have done a Masters after getting her first class degree but on balance decided another £9k of student debt for a year was a step too far that she couldn’t afford.

I suppose these examples we are giving are all low level fruit but they add up nationwide.

Very well illustrated Ohhowwelaughed. (I like your user name by the way my aunt used to make us laugh by saying that phrase occasionally!). Irrefutable anecdotes that stack up. I believe you. I know of one couple in Bristol who know how to game the system and over the years have done very well (their kids even gained Master degrees at no cost).

"In all my years as an advisor I met only two people whose claims were not justifiable"

But this is the point, how long have you known these people and how many times have you seen them?

Let's take John who live down the road from me, slightly younger at 59. He's been having quite a bit of trouble with his back loads of hospital visits and scans and a degenerative disc problems.

He still goes to work as a self employed gardener but doesn't do weeding etc anymore but sticks to cutting hedges and gets the Mrs. to clean up.
Now if you came to see him at home to help him fill his claim form in and he told you he was in crippling pain and was struggling to walk to the gate and back and he's has the consultant scans etc to prove it what would you think and how would you have him fill the form in.

As it happens John doesn't claim as he says he can earn enough as it is and he doesn't have to be looking over his shoulder all day to check nobody is watching.

Cabbie21 Like you I have been a benefits advisor, in my case with the older people. I do not ever think I had an unjustifiable case, but I used to find that the DWP assessors were able to deal with simple cases - someone with severe arthritis for example, where the disability was easy to explain, but seemed completely incapable of dealing with complex cases, where someone had multiple health problems which affected them in complex ways.

These cases were more likely to be turned down than the simpler cases. Having said that I always took these cases to appeal and never once had one failed to get the benefit on appeal.

I too am puzzled how people who make up or exaggerate health conditions manage to be awarded benefits when genuine claimants find it so hard to get their claims accepted.

Claiming PIP, which incidentally is not means-tested so is not necessarily “ living off benefits” as some people are able to work and be entitled to PIP, is actually very difficult . Renewals are not automatic. Being turned down means a challenge and then the decision is rarely overturned without having to go to Tribunal, meaning a long wait. All very stressful if your life is already hard work due to physical disability or anxiety.
Even claiming UC means fulfilling a claimant commitment, and if you fail to do so, you get sanctioned ie your money is reduced or stopped.
In all my years as an advisor I met only two people whose claims were not justifiable, and many hundreds whose genuine claims were initially turned down and needed help to succeed.

"How on earth did they get to know such detailed information about so many people?"

Community that's how, where I live I have lived with the same people for 60 years, I know probably 50 people enough I could probably win Mr and Mrs with them.

I went to school with lots of them, I know there sisters,brothers, who they went out with and who they had affairs with

If you have never lived in such close communities then you would never know. The local spar shop workers could tell you even more about our local people

Having known these people for so long and so personally why would I grass on any of them unless so major crime that I couldn't live with myself for not telling .

All the claimant I know that are fraudulent are not that they are not ill but let's put it they make the illness worse so they can either claim the higher rates or make claiming easier by getting longer gaps between checks

So yes I see people come on saying nobody is claiming and it's all hearsay and nobody knows about people and thinks they have lead such sheltered lives.

Just like we all know cash in hand is done, a tenner here and a tenner there but are not added into HMRC stats.

M0nica

Ohhowwelaughed But everything is based on hearsay. All these people who 'know' people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to rarely know th persons detailed medical history. Many very seriously ill and disabled people, may actually look fine if you see them outside their own home.

I worked with elderly people and I had several clients, who seen outside the house, walking with her arm through her husband's, or greeting you at the door with a smile, immaculately dressed and made-up, hid real suffering. One suffered from meunieres disease, which causes extreme dizziness, sometimes for weeks on end, she had to crawl rund the house on her hands and knees as the dizziness meant she could not stand. She had alopecia and wore a wig and once fell against the cooker setting her wig on fire and starting a house fire.

Another lady was in such extremem pain, that once a week at least she would have to take a pain killer that gave her 48 hours of diorrhea and extreme nausea, but it was better than the pain.

You really cannot tell just by seeing someone what their medical condition may be.

All these people who 'know' people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to rarely know th persons detailed medical history

I'm also puzzled how they know which benefits are being claimed - some benefits are not necessarily paid in full.

If I see someone of working age in my street fairly regularly during working hours, he or she could be working from home, working part-time, working some days and not others, be a carer, be ill, be disabled, be temporarily unemployed - or maybe even 'unemployable', could have won the lottery, come into an inheritance... how would I know unless told where their income stemmed from or why they didn't disappear from 9-5.

This is why I don't understand how so many seem to know so much about other people's business.

"I know many people who are claiming benefits, who are not really ill they just don't want to work" is now becoming a standard response whenever the matter of benefits is raised.

How on earth did they get to know such detailed information about so many people?

Ohhowwelaughed But everything is based on hearsay. All these people who 'know' people are claiming benefits they are not entitled to rarely know th persons detailed medical history. Many very seriously ill and disabled people, may actually look fine if you see them outside their own home.

I worked with elderly people and I had several clients, who seen outside the house, walking with her arm through her husband's, or greeting you at the door with a smile, immaculately dressed and made-up, hid real suffering. One suffered from meunieres disease, which causes extreme dizziness, sometimes for weeks on end, she had to crawl rund the house on her hands and knees as the dizziness meant she could not stand. She had alopecia and wore a wig and once fell against the cooker setting her wig on fire and starting a house fire.

Another lady was in such extremem pain, that once a week at least she would have to take a pain killer that gave her 48 hours of diorrhea and extreme nausea, but it was better than the pain.

You really cannot tell just by seeing someone what their medical condition may be.