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Calling women by a Mrs title ... & commenting on what they wear.

(141 Posts)
anonymose Sat 06-Jul-24 01:47:40

I've just skimmed through another post on here about AR and her trouser suit & was quite amazed that the outgoing PM Rishi Sunaks wife was referred to as Mrs Sunak, also Mrs Angela Raynor & Mrs Victoria Starmer. Others sorry I've missed their names (not familiar with many UK politicians) but is this a thing in 2024.
I've understood from my reading these are all intelligent, employed women & not waiting at home for husbands like a 1950s housewife might have done so why not just call them by their names - AR, VS, AS etc - or is this the mindset of Gransnet?
I accept I haven't used the forum for a long time but discussions about clothing choices & Mrs et als really should have been left generations before us.

Nannarose Sat 06-Jul-24 15:29:19

They are different issues.
It is also common in many cultures / countries NOT to refer to a woman by her husband's 'surname'. It's not universal - many people who spend times in different countries or cultures may use slightly different versions of their names.
I think it best, on an individual basis to ask someone how they like to be called (men as well). Someone in public life has normally indicated how they like to be referred to.
I don't mind a general discussion about clothes - did I like the white collar on the All Blacks' shirt this season? But it often seems a proxy for being rude.

RosiesMaw Sat 06-Jul-24 15:13:39

It seems OP is citing two different issues and IMO these should be kept separate.

Doodledog Sat 06-Jul-24 15:10:19

Angela Rayner was there in her own professional capacity, and as she won't be moving into or out of Downing Street her husband didn't need to be filmed or photographed with her.
I now realise that AR is divorced and good friends with her ex, but my previous point remains. If she had a husband he wouldn't be moving in so wouldn't need to be there as her 'plus one'.

Mollygo Sat 06-Jul-24 14:39:27

varian
This has probably long since gone out of fashion, but I was taught that it would be correct to address a married lady as "Mrs John Smith" and address a widow as "Mrs Sarah Smith"
I learnt the same thing.
Also told by my MIL that I couldn’t be just Mrs Go whilst she was alive, but had to be Mrs Hugh Go.
It didn’t bother me.

Doodledog Sat 06-Jul-24 14:34:38

JaneJudge

I think yesterday was a bit more than just 'Mrs' though. The dutiful caring wife, hanging onto successful husbands all came across quite old fashioned in itself, in fact I would go as far as to say it seemed very much 1950s but maybe this was done on purpose to give a sense of hope or change, I am not sure as I bought into it to. All the ladies mentioned are successful women in their own right - only one mentioned was doing her actual job

I agree that in this context there is a difference between Angela Rayner and the wives of the incoming and outgoing PMs.

These days (probably since 'call me Tony'?) MPs are often referred to by their given names. Or, in the case of Johnson by one of several that wasn't used by his family and friends. 'Boris' made him seem like 'one of the lads' in a way that didn't really sit right with 'Rishi', and probably won't with Sir Keir Starmer, who is altogether more dignified. Maybe now he's in post he will relax a bit though - time will tell.

The wives were there in that role. In their own professional situations they may or may not use 'Mrs S', but on Thursday and Friday they were the incoming and outgoing residents of 10 Downing Street because of the roles of their husbands. Angela Rayner was there in her own professional capacity, and as she won't be moving into or out of Downing Street her husband didn't need to be filmed or photographed with her.

SueDonim Sat 06-Jul-24 13:53:25

It doesn’t really bother me, in all truth. I liked my dh’s surname more than my father’s name, which in any case, wasn’t even his name, he’d be born with a different name and it got changed along the way.

I’ve been buying my own cars since the 1990’s and have never come across the trouble other women seem to have with car salesmen. Maybe it’s my look or my demeanour but they’ve always been perfectly respectful to me. I know my stuff and drive a hard bargain. grin In the past ten years there seems to be more female sales persons, anyway, and also mechanics and so on, which is good to see.

nanna8 Sat 06-Jul-24 13:46:58

Mostly everyone ,including Doctors etc, ijust use your first name here. I can’t remember being called ‘Mrs.’ for many years. Same applies to the men- always just their first names.

Elrel Sat 06-Jul-24 13:46:02

Hard to believe that the ‘trousers’ posts have reached 17 pages!

When in the last century I first used Ms by writing it on the blackboard every class at my new school pointed out “you have left the ‘r’ out of Mrs, Miss’!!
I explained that ‘Miss’ indicated an unmarried woman, ‘Mrs’ a married one while Ms was somone who didn't think it necessary to let everyone know her marital status. They got it!

Germanshepherdsmum Sat 06-Jul-24 13:34:35

When ordering something online and being given a choice including Dr, Lady, etc I am always very tempted - but haven’t succumbed so far!

JaneJudge Sat 06-Jul-24 13:25:50

I think yesterday was a bit more than just 'Mrs' though. The dutiful caring wife, hanging onto successful husbands all came across quite old fashioned in itself, in fact I would go as far as to say it seemed very much 1950s but maybe this was done on purpose to give a sense of hope or change, I am not sure as I bought into it to. All the ladies mentioned are successful women in their own right - only one mentioned was doing her actual job

winterwhite Sat 06-Jul-24 13:25:33

The French Mlle Mme system is much more sensible.

I think that referring to someone as John Smith or Anne Smith implies a degree of familiarity. I wouldn't write or say John Smith unless I knew him. I'd use Mr Smith. With Anne Smith, if I happened to know she was married I'd use Mrs Smith, but if I didn't it would be Anne Smith.

I think that using professional titles in private life is rather daft.

I also think that spouses, when appearing as spouses and not in their own right, should just grin and bear whatever they're called. Very rude to make a fuss. So bad luck Mrs Sunak and bad luck Mr Reeve.

Doodledog Sat 06-Jul-24 13:12:57

I took my husband's name on marriage, and didn't really think about it. I don't know whether I would do it if we married tomorrow, but I don't regret it. I've used that name for longer than I used my father's name.

At work I use a qualification title on documents (in conversation staff and students all use given names), but am happy with either that, 'Given name Surname' or Mrs outside of work. I may have worked for my qualifications, but they aren't relevant at my knitting group grin.

I am not keen on being asked for a 'christian name' as I am agnostic, but don't get upset about it as I know what it means.
What I am not happy with is when I am referred to as 'Given name' in a professional setting (eg by a doctor or nurse), particularly if they introduce themselves as Dr. Either we are on first name terms or we aren't, and either way it should be reciprocal. I'm more than prepared to correct that if it happens. I realise they are trying to be less stuffy by using given names, but I prefer a professional distance when the occasion demands. I have noticed lately that nurses tend to ask how I want to be addressed, which is a positive development, IMO. I am then perfectly happy to be referred to as Doodle, as I never use my full given name. 'Doodle Middlename Dog' makes me feel like I'm in trouble.

Tiley Sat 06-Jul-24 13:07:07

I am proud to be addressed as Mrs. Can't see what the problem is.

I did get a nuisance phone call the other day and was addressed as Mam, I politely told her my title was Mrs

pably15 Sat 06-Jul-24 13:04:05

Judy Bloom I agree with you 100%..i am proud to be a mrs and use my husbands name

Baggs Sat 06-Jul-24 13:02:40

History, innit?

Wyllow3 Sat 06-Jul-24 13:02:36

Callistemon213

Our family surnames were presumably our father's surnames.

Unless we had very progressive, forward-thinking mothers.

My DS has my surname, and his Dad's surname as middle name. We always told him he could change it if he wanted.

Baggs Sat 06-Jul-24 13:02:05

varian

Spuddy

If my name is Sarah Smith and my hubby is John Smith ... which we're not .... as I'm married and happily took his surname by choice, I have no objection to being called Mrs Smith but what I absolutely HATE and find it extremely sexist and chauvinistic is me being called Mrs John Smith!

No, I'm NOT Mrs John Smith, I'm Mrs Sarah Smith!

This has probably long since gone out of fashion, but I was taught that it would be correct to address a married lady as "Mrs John Smith" and address a widow as "Mrs Sarah Smith"

But, actually, you are Mrs John Smith – the Mistress (in its old, respectable sense) of John Smith. That's what it means. Nowadays old-fashioned but its meaning was always harmless.

When I first lived in Scotland as a teenager the full title of Mistress was used of all older women whether they were married or not.

Callistemon213 Sat 06-Jul-24 12:58:13

Germanshepherdsmum

I have never had a problem with being called Mrs.

I had a similar situation when I had my car serviced madeleine. The receptionist who telephoned to say it was ready a collect payment always asked for my husband. Every single time. I think she just didn’t like to acknowledge that a woman might own a nice car and be able to pay for it to be serviced. Very petty.

I remember when we went to buy a car for me. The salesman at the showroom knew us, DH had bought a couple of cars from there previously.

The salesman looked at DH and said "And how will you be paying, Sir?"
DH looked at me and said "How are you paying, dear?"
😃

Callistemon213 Sat 06-Jul-24 12:55:44

AGAA4

I remember getting a letter years ago addressed to Mrs David Aga. I was annoyed as I felt I had become a part of his property and not a person in my own right.

Oh yes, that is apparently the correct form of address unless a woman is widowed, then she should use her own forename and husband's surname.

Callistemon213 Sat 06-Jul-24 12:53:35

Our family surnames were presumably our father's surnames.

Unless we had very progressive, forward-thinking mothers.

Iam64 Sat 06-Jul-24 12:51:34

I kept my family name when I married Mr I in 1983. We discussed it and he was clear he wanted to keep his last name and didn’t expect me to change mine. I was already Ms so marriage changed nothing.
When we did our first wills, our solicitor wanted to have me listed as Mrs Husbands last name, known professionally as Ms My last name. I declined, said that’s nonsense and makes me sound like a sex worker.

It’s good to have women like Akshata Murty and Victoria Starmer (nee Alexander) ie women with their own careers, married to PM’s

Calendargirl Sat 06-Jul-24 11:40:12

That’s how I understood it Varian.

AGAA4 Sat 06-Jul-24 11:37:27

I remember getting a letter years ago addressed to Mrs David Aga. I was annoyed as I felt I had become a part of his property and not a person in my own right.

Germanshepherdsmum Sat 06-Jul-24 11:36:38

I have never had a problem with being called Mrs.

I had a similar situation when I had my car serviced madeleine. The receptionist who telephoned to say it was ready a collect payment always asked for my husband. Every single time. I think she just didn’t like to acknowledge that a woman might own a nice car and be able to pay for it to be serviced. Very petty.

Wyllow3 Sat 06-Jul-24 11:29:38

Well done re car salesman!

Idea of keeping my own name probably started with my mum who took my dads surname 1948 but always her own first name.
She didnt see why she should lose her identity by becoming Mrs John smith instead of becoming Mrs Ellen Smith.