Petition to save the winter fuel payment

@Primrose53
People who have worked and paid into a small pension are being denied something that those who haven't are getting, so those who have are (understandably IMO) resentful. Not only that, but Pension Credit itself is a divisive benefit, as those who qualify get so many other things that someone on a few pounds more (that they've paid for) are denied, and this move compounds that agony

Excellent post!

The entire system is unfair and corrupt. And thats why I would never snitch on someone making a bit extra in the "black economy" in order to get by.

People shouldn't have to prove need to get something they've paid for

I dont think they have paid for it in relation to the fuel allowance. They have paid for the type of society we want. That means paying in doesnt automatically mean the right to get back beyond basic societal principles which might be the state pension for instance.

The point is the "anecdotal" stuff is there because people with high incomes are receiving state money that they just do not need to live comfortably. Whilst thresholds remain too low to ensure the less well off can live comfortably

AGAA4

What I would prefer to see is the pension threshold being increased so that those who are only a small amount over can benefit from pension credit and get WFA.
Giving all pensioners the fuel payment when many don't need it is a step in the wrong direction.

My word indeed: is there such a thing as a Rich Pensioner? An oxymoron, surely?

I have tried three times to post a reply, but am not used to using my phone to post and keep losing the replies.😡.

Biglouis they are my words, not Primrose’s. I understand your POV, Madgran, but with respect I think it might come from a place of privilege? If you worked for minimum wage in a job you hated, but wanted to do the best you could to rise above the situation so prided yourself on being self-sufficient, you might feel differently if your neighbour got more than you for not working.

At this point, I can guarantee that someone is poised to lecture me on how not everyone can afford to save, which is maddening, as it misses my point. I know!!!

It is the system that makes people resentful, IMO, not meanness of spirit. Someone bumping along, trying to get themselves and their family out of poverty through work and small saving can easily find that it is their savings that drag them back into poverty. Not only that, but the money taken from their wages in tax and NI is given to people who don’t work or save.

I am not saying that those who can’t work should get less (before somebody leaps to that infuriating conclusion). I am saying that a system based on a means-test turns people against each other and ultimately increases poverty, particularly when people can’t live on minimum wage because rents and childcare costs are so high, and they have to rely on benefits to survive. The benefits pay their landlords and nursery owners, and the recipients can’t get out of the situation as every penny they save us deducted from their income. Even gifts from family count against them.

Pay into a pension and the same applies. Of course people resent it. I’m stopping now in case this post goes AWOL too.

Not only that, but Pension Credit itself is a divisive benefit, as those who qualify get so many other things that someone on a few pounds more (that they've paid for) are denied, and this move compounds that agony

With regard to any system of benefits there will always be those "just over the threshold". But if thresholds were higher to enable a realistic standard of living with agreed criteria for those being raised then the impact is minimal. Again though, this is within the context of paying in for society not purely for self.

Which is great in theory but less so on the sharp end.

mae13 there are plenty of well off pensioners who really don't need the WFP. I know several who own two or more homes, very expensive cars and go on several holidays each year.
They are a world away from those pensioners who are just about coping.

That's back to 'need' again, though. What does it mean, and who decides?

If the cut-off is having savings of £1000 and I have £990 because I've spent my decent wages as I got them, and you have £1010 because despite your lower income you have scrimped and saved to have a little bit extra. If I am given £200 it takes me to £1190, whilst you stay on £1010, simply because you tried to pull yourself out of poverty. Wouldn't you be resentful? Or would you smile and say you can't have 'needed' that extra money as you were able to save?

It's about aspiration. People don't want to work to have just what they 'need', particularly when someone else has decided on where that level sits, and will penalise them for getting above that level.

I would like to hear that the government will put pressure on the energy and water companies to reduce prices and stop these obscene payouts to company bosses and monitor dividends to share holders.

Doodledog

Which is great in theory but less so on the sharp end.

I dont think it is an impossible to achieve theory though.

It's about aspiration. People don't want to work to have just what they 'need', particularly when someone else has decided on where that level sits, and will penalise them for getting above that level

I get that. But that is where a universal old age pension comes in regardless of income.

But in terms of additional benefits such as fuel allowance or even free bus fares I do think that income should be taken into account. I just don't see why the state should pay for someone's fuel purely based on their age! I think age is an irrelevant criteria in terms of additional benefits.

Aspiration...well some in life achieve a reasonable income and can live comfortably on it. Some do not. And it is not always because they have been careless with their money or even been able to make choices regarding their money. National money should benefit them to live at least safely (warmth) not benefit people who have quite enough to pay for their own warmth. (As an example)

HelterSkelter1

I would like to hear that the government will put pressure on the energy and water companies to reduce prices and stop these obscene payouts to company bosses and monitor dividends to share holders.

Yup Agree with that!

Madgran77

HelterSkelter1

I would like to hear that the government will put pressure on the energy and water companies to reduce prices and stop these obscene payouts to company bosses and monitor dividends to share holders.

Yup Agree with that!

me too

Doodledog Madgran, but with respect I think it might come from a place of privilege? If you worked for minimum wage in a job you hated, but wanted to do the best you could to rise above the situation so prided yourself on being self-sufficient, you might feel differently if your neighbour got more than you for not working.

I understand your point. However some in a "place of privelege" NOW may well not have come from a "place of privelege"! They may well be acutely aware of those struggling which will definitely influence their thinking regarding chucking money like fuel allowance at people just because of their age!

Resentment with neighbours ...well yes but that is about the systems for allocating benefits; requirements regarding seeking employment etc etc ...it is not a justification for a universal fuel allowance.

I'm sure we are coming from basically the same place, Madgran. The last thing I want is for anyone to be cold, or to only stay warm at the expense of other necessities. I am not suggesting cuts, but universal benefits with higher taxes, so that more of the benefits stay in the pockets of those with less.

I have outlined my objections to means-tests often, so won't bore on about them again, but I think that at least some of the divisions we are seeing so clearly just now are fuelled by perceived unfairnesses when it comes to who is given what.

That doesn't mean I don't understand that not everyone can afford to save. Of course I do (and have said so often). It is because I do understand that it is difficult for many people to get out of poverty that I object to systems that penalise them for trying.

I think you are probably right that we are coming from basically the same place Doodledog.

We may have differing views on solutions but we both want the same end result! I'm going to ponder on universal benefits and higher taxes! 🙂

A bit late to comment on this thread, but just a thought. Single pensioner households who are outside of the Pension Credit limit are going to be hard hit. Their homes need light and heating to the same degree as the homes of couples,but with only one pension income.
Living alone, there is no one to notice when difficulties set in, and the older pensioner tries to do without heating etc. There lies the danger that makes people vulnerable.

There's another petition here from Age Uk with 436,000 signatures. It's a blow for us. We're over the threshold but have enormous fuel bills (old house) and it really helped with the winter one. About 4,000 people a year die from cold apparently.

I think the means testing should not be based on whether or not people receive benefits but upon their overall income with the highest earners not receiving it and those under a certain income receiving it.

campaigns.ageuk.org.uk/page/154268/petition/1?ea.tracking.id=Website

Honestly it's bad enough being a Waspi without this as well! My agegroup seems to draw the short straw on everything!

keepingquiet

I won't be signing. We should all be on a pension that means we don't have to have 'extra' payments.

How long are you going to wait, till doomsday?

If you are on pension credits you will get WFA the rest of us don’t need WFA and the money will be spent on those that need help in other areas.
You just cannot defend giving handouts to those that don’t need them, there are plenty of other universal benefits that should be made means tested too.

Sorry I’m not signing it there’s too many pensioners getting it who have more than enough money - me for instance, those who really need it will get it it’ll be means tested I’ve always said it’s terrible that those with plenty of money have been getting it for years. Even millionaires - what a nonsense🤬

Having read this thread and people's opinions, I won't sign this petition, but would sign one to increase the level of income at which Pension Credit is paid.

Surely then there wouldn't be the problem of means testing for the WFA; it would have already have been calculated for the Pension Credit, and could be automatically paid to those on PC.

choughdancer

Having read this thread and people's opinions, I won't sign this petition, but would sign one to increase the level of income at which Pension Credit is paid.

Surely then there wouldn't be the problem of means testing for the WFA; it would have already have been calculated for the Pension Credit, and could be automatically paid to those on PC.

Pension Credit should be at the correct level I would hope that is done in the Budget,