This scares me about Putin.

ronib

Oreo pointless discussion. Putin has failed to stop the encroachment of NATO onto its borders. What is so difficult to understand about this?

NATO exists BECAUSE of the threat Russia has posed since 1945. Russia does not exist because of NATO.

NATO acquired 2 new members after Ukraine was invaded. Both countries with century's long histories of neutrality because of the threat Russia now posed to them.

Why should Rusia have any control ove what comes up to its borders, that is the remit of the independent sovereign states that adjoin Russia.

One of those states is Ukraine. Why did Russia not respect their sovereign status up to ts border? Why did it feel, while others should ot encroach on Russi, it was free to walk into other countries and try and take them over.

Why are the people defend Russia's right to invade and colonise its neighbours, the ones that shout loudest about historic colonialism. Colonialism is either a bad thing and they should oppose Russia or an OK thing and they should be acepting of European countries invading and occupying countries elsewhere.

Russia doesn’t want to have missiles fired at it from nearby countries. Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer zone between itself and what is clearly a hostile world. What exactly is unacceptable about that?

FriedGreenTomatoes2

“ Cripple Britain? We have the Labour party for that surely” said Himself earlier.
🤣

Oh the hilarity.

Clearly a hostile world? All hostility comes from Russia.
It’s a large country and could be busy helping its own citizens and the tremendous poverty there, particularly in the countryside.What does it do? It spends too much money on arms and invades a neighbouring country and verbally threatens the West.

ronib

Russia doesn’t want to have missiles fired at it from nearby countries. Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer zone between itself and what is clearly a hostile world. What exactly is unacceptable about that?

I don’t think Ukraine wants missiles fired into it either.

Oreo just think about this - what did the USA and Uk do a few days ago?

Oreo, we sometimes disagree but imo, generally we have ‘acceptable’ views to debate, rarely if ever, I can’t remember one anyway, a Shouting Match.
Thanks for setting reality in response to ronib’s distirted appeasing views
I find myself back at work, where some fiendish bully is making demands no reasonable person would make. Give’ em an inch and they’ll have their tanks on your lawn, terrorising anybody who has the temerity to oppose demands

I find it baffling tbh Iam64 that any poster can blame either Ukraine or the West in this matter.It’s all on Russia, or rather all on Putin! Even those who surround him must worry.

Just try and see how this whole fiasco might seem to Russia. This is not appeasement but an attempt to understand how on earth we came to be on the brink of world war.

I heard 2 thousand Russian soldiers are dying daily. It's unbelievable.

ronib

Just try and see how this whole fiasco might seem to Russia. This is not appeasement but an attempt to understand how on earth we came to be on the brink of world war.

This whole fiasco was about Putin wanting the old USSR back.
At any cost. It was meant to be over in a couple of weeks and years down the line it rumbles on, much to his chagrin.
Russia meddles where it can, actively trying to affect economies with cyber attacks.
Don’t defend them or you’ll be helping his disinformation propaganda.

Jeanathome

I heard 2 thousand Russian soldiers are dying daily. It's unbelievable.

I think that may well be unbelievable.

Oreo how well informed are you on this? Did you listen to the address/justification for war Putin gave? I remember that he was clear in saying that he wanted to put on end to fighting which was taking place on the border between Russia and Ukraine. Also that Putin had hoped for a short war. We do all suffer from not seeing the total picture.

An end

ronib

Just try and see how this whole fiasco might seem to Russia. This is not appeasement but an attempt to understand how on earth we came to be on the brink of world war.

Russia is not a democratic country. It is a country under the power of a psychopathic dictator driven by a desire to rebuild the old Soviet Union and make itself a preeminent global power again.

This war and all its horrors is driven by Putin and those who choose to follow him, to grab some of the power. The people of Russia have no say in the invasion. You might as well ask how the fiasco of the Iraq invasion of Kuwait might seem to the ordinary Iraqi of the time.

If we talk of Russia, as meaning the Russian people, well speak to the bereaved families of soldiers, convicts and all the others sacrificed on Putin's ambitions, or to those imprisoned for breaking tighter and tighter rules about expressing oppostion to the war, speak to the family of murdered Alexander Navalny who believed in freedom of speech and democratic government. I think you will find, if they are not too terrified to speak that they do not want the war, never did and would give everything to get out of it.

Jeanathome

I heard 2 thousand Russian soldiers are dying daily. It's unbelievable.

If it’s true the 10,000 from North Korea will last 5 days, we are hearing propaganda from both sides, be very circumspect about the actual facts

Doesn’t that argument apply to most wars? Monica. I certainly want it to stop without further bloodshed but the hole is getting bigger by the minute. Over 1000 days now. It’s crazy.

David49

Jeanathome

I heard 2 thousand Russian soldiers are dying daily. It's unbelievable.

If it’s true the 10,000 from North Korea will last 5 days, we are hearing propaganda from both sides, be very circumspect about the actual facts

It seemed a reliable source.

ronib

Russia doesn’t want to have missiles fired at it from nearby countries. Russia wants Ukraine as a buffer zone between itself and what is clearly a hostile world. What exactly is unacceptable about that?

What is wrong with it is that Russia has no right or authority to decide that it wants another country as a buffer zone, unless that country has, first been consulted, and secondly, has agreed to be a buffer zone - and why choose Ukraine. Russia could have spoken to a host of other countries that are on its borders, Finland, Latvia, Estonia. Why did it choose Ukraine?

Why does Russiaa need a buffer zone - a buffer zone against what?

I would point out that Russia was the first to fire missiles at another country, Ukraine. Ukraine would not have fired at Russia, if Russia had not fired first. Surely the country needing a buffer zone is Ukraine, a large swathe of Russian land all the way down its border, to protect it from the Russians. Something it has never claimed.

Most of the countries along the Russian border, were once Russian colonies who regained their freedom from Russia in 1989. In the 35 years since then, none of them, including Ukraine have made any military threats against Russia, tried to invade it or even talk about invading it.

Who supplies weapons and missiles to each country is irrelevant. Russia is being supplied with arms by North korea, China and Iran. Ukraine is supplied by NATO members.

I have yet to hear anyone claim that North Korea, China or Irans are at war with Ukraine because they supply Russia with armaments. so why should the USA or the Uk be claimed to be at war with Russia because we supply a front line country with armaments.

If you are going to defend Russia ronib, you really need to up your game in the arguments you use. The ones you are using at the moment are shot through with holes.

Monica please stop thinking that I am defending Russia if I ask why have they embarked on this military action which Putin failed to describe as a war in his speech initially.
Russia apparently needs a buffer zone against NATO placing missiles in countries bordering Russia. Russia does not want missiles fired into its territory by NATO backed forces. Sounds plausible enough although I would have thought the equivalent of the Israeli defence system the Iron Dome?would have done the trick more effectively. I would like it all to stop. This war must be suiting Putin as it is causing economic mayhem in the West with energy prices soaring.

What do you mean. ‘Why choose Ukraine’? Ukraine is bang on the border with Russia. It clearly needs NATO not to be in Ukraine to secure its own border security. Monica

That’s where I might even agree with yiur nonsense ronib this war must be suiting Putin as it’s causing economic mayhem in the West
The more he’s able to destabilise the west, the happier the despot will be. As with all dictators and bullies, colluding or appeasing will only encourage more assaults

But Iam64 after 1000 days plus how to bring the war to some kind of resolution? It seems to be accelerating towards the worst possible outcome.

ronib

What do you mean. ‘Why choose Ukraine’? Ukraine is bang on the border with Russia. It clearly needs NATO not to be in Ukraine to secure its own border security. Monica

Yes, Ukraine borders Russia, but so do Finland, Latvia and Estonia,all NATO members, also China, North Korea, Kazakhstan and a host of other countries. Why choose Ukraine?

Why does Russia need NATO not to be in Ukraine? to secure its own border security. Finland, Estonia and Latvia are aso NATO members, why not one of them, or all of them.

NATO has been in existence since 1949. In all that time it has shown no desire to invade Russia or, in previous times, its satellites. Its purpose has always been to respond if Russia invaded any NATO member.

If Russia would prefer it if Ukraine did not join NATO, and until the invasion, Ukraine had been happy not to do so, the way forward was peaceful negotiation, the bread and butter of diplomacy. Once one country invades another, there is no going back and Ukraine now wants to be part of NATO, because not being a member has made it vulnerable to Russian invasion.

Nowadays when missiles can be fired from hundreds of miles away, NATO has no need any longer to keep missiles in countries near Russia, and, similarly Russia no longer needs missiled on its own borders. So this idea of needing a friendly border state is no longer relevant.

Good points.