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Gisèlle Pelicot - the case is tearing French society apart.

(133 Posts)
FriedGreenTomatoes2 Sat 07-Dec-24 12:19:25

From an article in the Sunday Times:

“Since there are 50 in total, the alleged rapists have been tried in batches and I’m just here for the final seven: Boris, Philippe, Nicolas, Nizair, Joseph, Christian, Charly. Plus Dominique Pelicot himself, who invited them all into his marital bedroom, where he had his wife waiting, drugged and naked, and who joined in and filmed it all. Pelicot, 71, crumpled and fat now, but with a residual bulky power, sits sullenly alone with his guard in a separate glass box, protected from the other men who blame and detest him.

Ordinary men in many respects, not vagrants, junkies or career criminals. This week’s seven includes a fireman, an electrician and a journalist; several are fathers, two were keen weightlifters, one bred dogs. French trials helpfully begin with a personality profile formed from interviews with the men, their friends and colleagues. Poverty, domestic violence and mental breakdowns feature, but also that a man is “kind” or “gentle”, had a lovely childhood, adored his grandparents or is devoted to his mum.

But one question overshadows all others. How many men would have done the same? If Pelicot could recruit at least 70 willing participants (a number could not be identified) within a 25-mile radius of Mazan, the Provençal town where the couple retired, how many in the whole of France? As I walk through Avignon with Juliette Campion of radio station France Info, who bears the strain of reporting this case since September, she gestures to a bureau de tabac: “You think, ‘Would a guy in there have raped Gisèle? Or men in the boulangerie or those on the street?’ Women are looking at men differently: they’re asking, ‘Could you or you or you?’ ”

In court, I hear another psychiatrist tasked with assessing whether each of the final seven defendants has the profile of a sexual abuser. One by one, he exonerates the men, saying they are not dangerous or likely to reoffend, to the growing exasperation of Gisèle’s team. Then he reaches Charly A. “He doesn’t search [for victims] systematically,” says the psychiatrist. “He’s not a predator.” Finally, Babonneau explodes: “Six times with a sleeping woman and he’s not a sexual abuser?” The men do not identify as rapists because, like this psychiatrist, they define rape as frenzied sexual violence, not an opportunistic act performed to whispers in a private home. As one defendant put it, “It’s her husband, his house, his room, his bed, his wife.”

theworriedwell Sun 08-Dec-24 09:42:01

It seems to be tearing her family apart as well. All three of her children seem to be struggling. Her daughter thinks she has also been abused, one sons marriage has broken up when his wife found out her FIL had naked pictures of her, one son not sure if it's the same one wants a DNA test as he believes he's the product of an affair his mother had. The daughter is angry that her mother took some clothes and things to her father in prison. All on the BBC site.

What a nightmare as if the rapes weren't bad enough she has so much more to deal with.

CariadAgain Sun 08-Dec-24 08:42:56

Re feelings - can we cite the way that there is still active discrimination against women? Can't speak for other countries - but in Britain:
1. men can get the NHS to sterilise them - but women can't (unless we've had several children anyway - which rather defeats the object).
2. men get paid more than women do if they do equity release scheme on their house (the exact same age person in the exact same house will get less money for being female than if they were male)
3. It's women that are having to complain that men who wish to "self-identify as women" are allowed in our spaces - but I can't see any sign of "women who self-identify as men" creating problems for men.
4. It's women who worry about walking the streets alone at night - not men.

petra Sun 08-Dec-24 08:39:23

grandMattie

It's truly horrific. Difficult to imagine.

But, what I think is saddest, is that every good man, honest man, is unfairly being tarred by the same brush.

If you think that that is the saddest part, your sympathy radar needs an overhaul.

MercuryQueen Sun 08-Dec-24 08:33:00

grandMattie

It's truly horrific. Difficult to imagine.

But, what I think is saddest, is that every good man, honest man, is unfairly being tarred by the same brush.

Hang on.

You find the idea that men might be viewed with more caution or suspicion than the fact that a woman was drugged and raped by at least 70 different men?

Are you seriously rating men’s feelings potentially being hurt as more of an issue?

Jaxjacky Sat 07-Dec-24 21:33:48

Oreo I fear a lot of people will shrug and carry on as before.

NotSpaghetti Sat 07-Dec-24 20:57:56

Yes. Exactly BlueBelle
Not all men - by any means!

BlueBelle Sat 07-Dec-24 20:43:09

These men are all around us
But we all have brothers, dads, grandads, sons and grandsons who aren’t like that …. thank God not all men

Oreo Sat 07-Dec-24 19:40:18

I think it has to be acknowledged that in France sex scenarios are viewed in a different light to the UK, until 2021 there wasn’t even an age of consent in place.Rape was viewed by police as something which was random and violent, anyone who was in a relationship and claimed rape wasn’t taken seriously.
Maybe things will change but I bet it will be slow.Apparently it’s easy to get strong drugs and lots of them from the French health authorities which allowed Pelicot to use them on his wife for years.

NotSpaghetti Sat 07-Dec-24 18:46:10

I'm not thinking about men in this small area of France.
These "ordinary" men are everywhere in my opinion.

You cannot pick out a sex offender by looking at them, working with them, socialising or praying with them.

They are living next door to us - and in all obvious ways are just like the loving, decent, thoughtful and generous people we married.

petal53 Sat 07-Dec-24 18:29:27

Kate1949

Whether they are likely to do it again is irrelevant. They should be punished for what they did THIS time.

Exactly.

Grandmafrench Sat 07-Dec-24 18:25:51

MissInterpreted

Aveline

So many of them though. The sheer numbers were so high. How did Pelicot recruit them?

According to the evidence given in court, he recruited them through a website chatroom, in which members discussed performing sexual acts on women without their consent, often after administering drugs to them. The website, which was registered in Guernsey, was connected to more than 23,000 French criminal cases from 2021 to 2024

Presumably not all the men were really local - from the village area - but there were indeed two mentioned and questioned in Court who 'abstained' but were still from the same department, Vaucluse. It was explained in the newspapers that these men, 42 and 48, were using an adult website on which Pelicot posted and presumably many others were able to chat online to Pelicot himself whilst remaining anonymous.

One man reported that Pelicot offered 'as payment for some gardening work', the opportunity for him to have sex with his Wife, but she would be asleep as she often took anxiety meds to help her relax!! The man stated in Court that he could hardly believe what was said and that his view was that a Wife is not an object to trade with, so you can't make an offer like that. The website allowed the other man, who had also declined, to have a similar conversation, but he said that he stopped messaging, because he felt it was too bizarre and could never be a serious proposition or conversation.

When asked in Court why Pelicot's proposal had not been reported, the responses were that it was felt the Police would seriously not be interested in the sort of comments which were made on such websites, that neither man had met Pelicot or been to his home, so could not verify what he proposed, and one of the men said that he really didn't want his Wife to find out that he ever looked at such websites.

MissInterpreted Sat 07-Dec-24 18:08:00

Aveline

Gosh. So many local men on this website. Beyond depressing.

And that's just France...

Aveline Sat 07-Dec-24 17:59:37

Gosh. So many local men on this website. Beyond depressing.

MissInterpreted Sat 07-Dec-24 17:35:39

Aveline

So many of them though. The sheer numbers were so high. How did Pelicot recruit them?

According to the evidence given in court, he recruited them through a website chatroom, in which members discussed performing sexual acts on women without their consent, often after administering drugs to them. The website, which was registered in Guernsey, was connected to more than 23,000 French criminal cases from 2021 to 2024

Aveline Sat 07-Dec-24 17:13:19

So many of them though. The sheer numbers were so high. How did Pelicot recruit them?

MissInterpreted Sat 07-Dec-24 17:09:39

Dickens

Aveline

Did a few men not refuse to take up Pelicot's offer? Wonder why they didn't report it?

I also have that impression - from reading something, somewhere - that some men 'declined' his invitation.

Maybe they didn't report it - and I hesitate to say this - because it was more the fact it was something they weren't into rather than being something they thought of as rape.

???

Yes, that's how I interpreted it too. Because of the way in which he 'recruited' the other men, they were all clearly into some sexual stuff which many of us would consider 'weird' to say the least, so their boundaries were probably far different to most.

Aveline Sat 07-Dec-24 17:06:57

If you saw this case as a film you'd never believe it was possible.

SueDonim Sat 07-Dec-24 16:50:16

Aveline

Did a few men not refuse to take up Pelicot's offer? Wonder why they didn't report it?

And did the men who participated - or chose not to participate - know about the other men? Was it a well-kept secret in the male community? Did no one else have an inkling?

It’s scary to think such horrors could be going on under our very noses.

Gisele Pelicot is an incredible woman. Brave and dignified.

CariadAgain Sat 07-Dec-24 16:45:34

Fairislecable

I hope the judge gives them the longest sentence possible. I am concerned that because she has spoken out and shown such courage it could be perceived she has recovered from her ordeal.

I am reminded of the Jill Saward case where she was savagely attacked by burglars in her own home but the perpetrators were given a longer sentence for the burglary than the rape!!

Trying to remember details of that. Wasn't she the one who was a vicars daughter and "forgave" them for what they did to her?
If so - it was rather different times then so maybe that's the explanation for a short sentence? Or it could be because she "forgave" them - if it's the woman I'm thinking of.

I do remember thinking at the time "Fancy forgiving them!!!! I'd be wishing for them to break every bone in their body as their punishment for that".

Dickens Sat 07-Dec-24 16:43:19

Aveline

Did a few men not refuse to take up Pelicot's offer? Wonder why they didn't report it?

I also have that impression - from reading something, somewhere - that some men 'declined' his invitation.

Maybe they didn't report it - and I hesitate to say this - because it was more the fact it was something they weren't into rather than being something they thought of as rape.

???

HousePlantQueen Sat 07-Dec-24 16:28:27

Aveline

Did a few men not refuse to take up Pelicot's offer? Wonder why they didn't report it?

That's a good point which I hadn't considered before. Either Pelicot was very careful in choosing his fellow rapists or, even worse, he wasn't, knowing that most men he invited would be keen.

Aveline Sat 07-Dec-24 16:21:48

Did a few men not refuse to take up Pelicot's offer? Wonder why they didn't report it?

M0nica Sat 07-Dec-24 16:17:10

No strong point at all, it is just that some posts read as though this case was entirely new and the writers had only just read about it.

This case is a case of continuing interest and can support several threads, but I expected more posts to be more referring back as well as present and forward.

It is just it induced in me a sense of deja vu, which felt quite odd.

HettyBetty Sat 07-Dec-24 16:02:35

I know two men who have committed serious sexual crimes. One has served his prison sentence, one is currently in prison now.

Both men would have been considered decent and honourable members of society, one a pillar of his church, one very respected in his profession.

The man who repeatedly sexually assaulted me when I was a teenager was a much loved popular member of my community.

Which makes me believe that virtually any man could commit these crimes if they thought they could get away with it.

MissInterpreted Sat 07-Dec-24 15:57:44

I cannot imagine what it must be like for those women. How would you ever trust anyone again?