The lives of women ....

and in just a few posts we are back onto the lives of men

The poem does not say that all men are dangerous and require endless appeasement. It tells our daughters and granddaughters that such men exist- and they do.
Add into the mix the "incel" movement and the need to exercise caution continues.

As far as I am aware women shoplift at a much higher rate than men, as a woman I dont get upset if someone talks about this, I dont feel they are accusing me of being a shoplifter.

JaneJudge

and in just a few posts we are back onto the lives of men

Yes and we know that most men are decent and I'm sure most of us would count our DSs and GDSs as such but this is about women and how many of us feel.
I think women have been brainwashed to feel that all that is important about us is the way we look.
Also some men are wife beaters and predators.

JaneJudge

and in just a few posts we are back onto the lives of men

Yes. I wondered how long it would take.

I have a lovely husband and a wonderful son, as well as many male friends. I am not a man hater.

But when is it ever going to be possible to talk about women, and how women feel without someone asking 'what about the men'? Caring about women does not meant caring about men.

We know it's not all men, that hardly needs saying, but you can guarantee it will be a woman who leaps to state this. Galaxy mentions that shoplifting is much more prevalent amongst women but you'd better not hold your breath waiting for a man to indignantly declare 'not all women'.

I don’t hate men either, I’m surrounded by them

I heard this last week. Having 4 daughters as well as 7 granddaughters ages 16-22 I found it disturbing and saddening to listen to. It feels like little has improved and maybe some things are even worse since I was a young woman.

I either love or like all the men who are or have been part of my life but I despise men who harm women either physically or mentally.

The poem is also about how women (young women in particular) feel obliged to please men, adapt their lives around men, bear the brunt of contraception, make themselves attractive .......

No they do not. I have never felt obliged to please men, it would never have occurred to my mother or grandmother to do so, so I wasn't taught to either.

My daughter is single, and always has been, she has lived in London, as have I, neither of us has ever felt constrained to get taxis and not walk. I would not walk down a dark alley or night, but then neither would DH or DS. There is a chance you could get mugged.

Women need to stop seeing themselves as victims all the time and start behaving like the adult confident women they say at the smetime as they wrap themselves in to that comfort blanket of victimhood.

M0nica

^The poem is also about how women (young women in particular) feel obliged to please men, adapt their lives around men, bear the brunt of contraception, make themselves attractive .......^

No they do not. I have never felt obliged to please men, it would never have occurred to my mother or grandmother to do so, so I wasn't taught to either.

My daughter is single, and always has been, she has lived in London, as have I, neither of us has ever felt constrained to get taxis and not walk. I would not walk down a dark alley or night, but then neither would DH or DS. There is a chance you could get mugged.

Women need to stop seeing themselves as victims all the time and start behaving like the adult confident women they say at the smetime as they wrap themselves in to that comfort blanket of victimhood.

at last a voice of reason..

Rosie51

We know it's not all men, that hardly needs saying, but you can guarantee it will be a woman who leaps to state this. Galaxy mentions that shoplifting is much more prevalent amongst women but you'd better not hold your breath waiting for a man to indignantly declare 'not all women'.

Ah, the voice of reason.

I have no idea about your background or upbringing M0nica but just because you or your parents are or were enlightened does not mean that there are not hundreds of thousands of girls who blindly follow “influencers” or the Kardashians or reels on Tik-Tok and may have boyfriends who behave and think like Andrew Tait.
Sadly you only have to look at the doll like stereotyped faces- over-plumped up lips, micro bladed eyebrows, long fake gel nails, enhanced buttocks, boob jobs, and false eyelashes like two wandering caterpillars to know that your views are not theirs - if only they were!
No they do not. I have never felt obliged to please men, it would never have occurred to my mother or grandmother to do so, so I wasn't taught to either

I dont know whether individual anecdotes are helpful, but maybe it is all we have, I would say that I know many women who have experienced assault or harassment, so does that trump Monica's story, I dont know.
As I say the poem isnt my thing, but I think it is possible to talk about Male violence without scapegoating all men, or making women victims.

I agree absolutely Galaxy. Some men present a danger to women and I am saddened to see that women at risk of assault are accused of assuming a " blanket of victimhood".
I think the data is 100 women killed a year by a partner or ex partner: that's a lot of mothers, daughters, sisters, nieces, friends...

Yes, of course women have experienced assault ad harrassment, but so have men.

While there are a subset of young girls/women who turn themselves into 'dolls' in order to appease men. They are not the majority of young girls and women. If you see a girl like that she does rather stand out compared with other girls her age. There is one who works in my local building society. But looking around when I am out, the 'dolls' are not the majority by a long way.

It is like with children, when children played out, there was safety in numbers, if girls were prepared to walk out there would be safety in numbers.

But when you consider the number of young men, no, not young men - boys - who are murdered each week by a contemporaries. How many boys under 16 have been knifed to death in the last three months - and how many girls. It seems to me that boys are more at risk than girls. As when my children were teenagers. I worry more about my DGS being the victim of random violence that could take his life than I do about his 17 year old sister.

I think the data is 100 women killed a year by a partner or ex partner: that's a lot of mothers, daughters, sisters, nieces, friends

Yes and it's shocking.

But these women are killed by their partners. Not by men you might bump into as you walk home.

My 10 year old grandson asked us what a misogynist was the other day. The girls are calling the boys misogynists. Where is this coming from?

This needs to stop.

I grew up very aware of my self I was never frightened or intimidated by men. Couple of girls in my private school used to scare me though.

It's dangerous to suggest all men are a danger to women. It's awful to our beloved fathers, grandfather's, sons and grandsons.

Chocolatelovinggran

I agree absolutely Galaxy. Some men present a danger to women and I am saddened to see that women at risk of assault are accused of assuming a " blanket of victimhood".
I think the data is 100 women killed a year by a partner or ex partner: that's a lot of mothers, daughters, sisters, nieces, friends...

I'm small and thin, tiny with enormous breasts. I know unless covered carefully, I attract attention - I cover up. I can't meet the strength of men even with caution. I don't go out alone in unsafe areas, never have.

It's not "victimhood" - it's logic.

My sons etc would never feel threatened in any way by people discussing Male violence. It is not that all men are a danger it is that in terms of violence and sexual assault in particular they are more dangerous than women.

Galaxy

My sons etc would never feel threatened in any way by people discussing Male violence. It is not that all men are a danger it is that in terms of violence and sexual assault in particular they are more dangerous than women.

Agreed.

My tiny (5'10) husband knows he is no danger to others. He's quite cautious not ever even be alone with any females who are not family members. Why put himself to danger from false talk? He's not at all threatened by talk of male violence. He's not daft - males can be violent and some are dangerous to women.

Absolutely Norah.
100 women a year killed by their men.
I am happy that you never felt intimidated or frightened by men, Rula, but the statistics support a degree of caution.

Such an interesting thread.
It's totally worrying for primary aged girls to be calling the boys "misogynists" though. We used to say they were naughty & noisy & smelly I suppose - they'd call us crybabies & goody-goodies.But we grew out of that.
Are these little girls going to grow out of the idea that males hate females though?Especially if they don't have regular contact with their dads?

Are these little girls going to grow out of the idea that males hate females though? Especially if they don't have regular contact with their dads?

So difficult. And boys are internalising the idea that they are threatening/unacceptable in some way.

But the original poem does vividly express the concerns, not just about male violence but about the position women find themselves in.

I do worry for my GD as she embarks on secondary school and a whole new set of relationships and increasing independence. Choppy waters .......

As I said, I am more worried about my grandson. He might inadvertently offend another boy in school and the next day that boy could turn up with a knife and kill him.

I am with Rula . From the time I went to university I studied and worked in predominantly male environments. Men have tried to frighten and intimidate me, but they haven't succeeded, or it could be just that I am flat chested.

Any woman's refusal to feel intimidated would have not deterred Levi Bellfield, for example.