Degree apprenticeships v university degrees

I don't think womansplaining is really a 'thing', but it seems I've touched a nerve .

Yes, you have stated your views, which are based on your own experience of working in (I assume) one line of work where you have encountered a limited number of young people. You have not given any insight outside of that. Debbie who doesn't understand bank loans cannot be representative of anything other than Debbie who doesn't understand bank loans. Nothing you have said shows how that lack of understanding is relevant to her choice of degree.

Mansplaining is when men tell women what those women already know because of their own lived experience - in my case that involves a whole career based in HE, writing several degrees, acting as an External Examiner, and liaising with professional bodies to ensure that a range of courses comply with professional requirements. I have seen hundreds (maybe thousands) of students graduate and go into work, and am in touch with many of them decades later, so have followed their progress from 21 or so to middle age.

I do have more of an oversight, so am not 'womansplaining'. I don't assume that because I am a woman, but because of my experience. If you explain why you feel that degrees 'should be' a certain way I am happy to engage with that - I certainly don't think I have the last word on the matter - but I have seen no evidence of that on this thread. 'These are my views based on the fact that they are my views' is not giving anything to go on, though.

There are of course many thousands of students do go into careers they studied for, many thousands of students who did not or never attained a graduate career at all, we have been producing far to many graduates for the jobs available for many years. Increase the ability level for university entry, for some careers like veterinary science it is already high - 3 top grade A Levels do not assure a place, other courses have much lower requirements.

It’s interesting that you acknowledge the shortcomings if the school system, I’ve often thought a computer would do the job better, then just employ someone to keep discipline, potty train, feed, teach dental hygiene and sort emotional problems.

I went to a College of Education in late 60s. I recall 1 session on how to teach.
I soon realised I was not in the right profession. My strengths are in admin! Took a long time to realise that!

There are of course many thousands of students do go into careers they studied for, many thousands of students who did not or never attained a graduate career at all
You haven't yet said what you mean by a 'graduate career', so I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to that.

we have been producing far to many graduates for the jobs available for many years.
Again, this is a statement with absolutely no substance. What do you mean by 'too many', and how are you measuring it? Are you assuming that graduates should only take 'graduate jobs', whatever they are? If not, are you comparing figures for unemployed graduates with those of non-graduates? Some figures would be good, whatever you are saying, as it's really not clear. Statistically, people with degrees earn more and are less likely to be unemployed than those without.*

Increase the ability level for university entry, for some careers like veterinary science it is already high - 3 top grade A Levels do not assure a place, other courses have much lower requirements.
I agree that this is the case, but I'm not sure of your point. Is it that all prospective students should have the same qualifications? I can't see how that would work - professions such as veterinary surgery are very different from things like Business Studies, and will appeal to very different people with different skillsets.

It’s interesting that you acknowledge the shortcomings if the school system, I’ve often thought a computer would do the job better, then just employ someone to keep discipline, potty train, feed, teach dental hygiene and sort emotional problems.
That's an 'interesting' perspective. I have never taught in a school, but I was once a child, and my children went to school, and from what I remember, a computer could not have done the job at all well for either generation. Potty training, feeding and dental hygiene weren't needed for any of us though, or any of our classmates. If your views are based on a very different experience, however, that may explain your attitude to education?

*https://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/latest/news/new-analysis-shows-students-who-choose

I hope we never focus on vocational degrees but continue to have a mix of the two. We enrich society intellectually and culturally through a broad based education, well educated parents widen the horizons of their children and we need artists, musicians, historians, anthropologists etc as much as we need accountants, lawyers and doctors etc. What a dreary world we would have if the only higher education was vocational.

I couldn't agree more, foxie. I would also hate to see a situation where only the wealthy can afford to study Arts and Humanities subjects, so our culture becomes the culture of the 'ruling class'. It is very important that everyone has a chance to have an input into the culture of the country as a whole, whether that is by producing TV programmes, playing in orchestras or writing novels. These things are not just entertainment, they are ways of making sense of the world, and it is vital that all sections of society are represented and have a chance to represent their realities.

For similar reasons, different perspectives on History are important, too, or we will end up in a world where people believe in 'facts' as told to them by the few people with access to documents and artefacts. The people who decide which versions of events are 'facts' have a lot more power than many realise.

Universities are not, and should never become training grounds for employment, IMO. They are places for learning and broadening horizons, as you say.

Doodledog "Universities are not, and should never become training grounds for employment, IMO. They are places for learning and broadening horizons, as you say."

Absolutely and the skills that students develop such as researching, critical thinking, time management, working as a team etc etc are not dependent upon the subject studied but are common to every under grad course, vocational or not. It saddens me that anyone has such a narrow view of education, it harks back to times when poorer people were taught to read and write not so they could develop their knowledge of the world but in order to support industrialisation. Surely we've progressed past that?

I would have hoped so, but it's clear that others feel differently.