The NHS will test all children who believe they are transgender for autism under new plans seen by The Telegraph.

It does seem that autism feeds into feeling profoundly uncomfortable with themselves and many develop all-consuming and unhealthy obsessions. The link between autism and gender dysphoria has been well-known for a while now - however it’s now being openly discussed much more.

Hopefully soon an acceptable way through this awful minefield will be found. 🤞

Thinking of the gender stereotype issue - we have the likes of Tate and co pushing on boys what they should be and its very misogyistic - if the TV series "Adolescence" is anything to go by its a terribly regrettable step back from where we were where both boys and girls didnt have to conform. Its been suggested that this should be shown and discussed in schools.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

I think malign influence of schools teaching gender identity as fact has to be stamped out as quickly as possible.

Stonewall got involved and the world went mad for a bit.

Do schools still do this? Strong guidance was given against it in 2024
www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-69017920#:~:text=But%20the%20updated%20guidance%20makes,a%20spectrum%22%20should%20be%20avoided.

Schools do have to decide how to best support both gay children and those children who want to change their gender and issues may well come up where children want to discuss it, the importance lies in how its dealt with. My 40 yr old friend who has teenagers at school sayer children's school deals with it with in a low key way but try to ensure bullying doesnt take place.

Since its out there in social media it has to be dealt with not "never mentioned" its all about how its done.

I do agree about the apparent increase in stereotypical definitions of what you should be as a girl as regards looks. Does this extend into what jobs and roles women should have access to however? I do hope not.

Cossy in terms of medical intervention (decisions to take drugs, operations) early 20's is the reality because you cant register with an NHS gender clinic until you re 18 and the waiting lists bring you into the early 20's.

Of course anyone at any point can decide to "live like" a girl/women and the importance of having gender clinics and a holistic approach for teenagers is to make sure that this choice is wise and not the only one.

(We cant control the activities of private clinics which may not be holistic)

I think malign influence of schools teaching gender identity as fact has to be stamped out as quickly as possible.

Stonewall got involved and the world went mad for a bit.

LizzieDrip, spot on.

Wyllow3

I really disagree.

I support the Cass report which has set up two centres for young people expressing gender dysphoria. These stand alongside local CAMHS.

Waiting lists are no shorter - they are long for both CAMHS and the Cass clinics. (and the adult clinics from 18)

The Gender clinics take exactly the holistic approach described above, with much needed specific expertise in working with the whole range of young people from those who are autistic or have other neurodevelopment on the one hand,

and those who are not "mentally ill", don't need CAMHS but face difficult choices ahead time to think and support until they are 18 and can register at an adult gender clinic.

There are 8 Adult Gender Clinics around the country and in these discussions can continue and treatment if it's the right way ahead.

Again, they are holistic, people may make choices to make no changes, to do what Oreo says,

for both teenage and adult clinics to support people taking their time and it being OK to be unsure and this is surely a valuable part of what the NHS can offer.

Pulling out of gender dysphoria means a two tier society with those who can afford help/treatment going ahead with possibly dodgy clinics who don't have this holistic approach and is just out to make money.

But ultimately, yes, I think the NHS should pay for meds or surgery where it's appropriate.

It seems to me that the O/P is suggesting that genuine gender dysphoria either doesnt exist or that people shouldn't get our societies support.

I agree completely and I also think it needs to be acknowledged that puberty can be a very confusing and difficult time for many teens and that ALL and ANY decisions around gender or indeed sexuality need to be deferred until early 20’s, with the young person/people given the holistic support to try and understand what is happening.

I agree Luckygirl.

Galaxy

Also we absolutely have become more wedded to gender stereotypes particularly for girls.

I agree Galaxy.

Female role models for young women & girls today are incredibly ‘stereotypically female’.

You only need to look at the ‘influencers’ (hate that word) on SM to see the image of what female ‘should be’ today. Like it or not, many women & girls now aspire to fit this mould.

Girls are being put into boxes and anyone who looks different, even to the extent of having short hair (!), is virtually outcast.

So sad!

The connection between autism and gender dysphoria is well documented, especially female to male.
So it makes perfect sense to look at this when young people present.
However this makes no sense in the absence of facilities where this can be done.

Very sensible to assess for autism in apparently transgender children and young people. In my work with adults with autism I met many who wanted to be a different gender or none.
There were two reasons behind this.
1) girls with autism who simply hated the changes that puberty brought. Change being a major stressor for people with autism.
2) people who always thought life would be different if only eg they lived elsewhere, owned some specific possession etc or were of a different gender. In all cases seen they were disappointed to find that they were still themselves.
A good autism assessment and post diagnostic support would be much more useful than gender reassignment surgery/drugs etc and that would involve. Even just allowing for time to pass and brains to mature would help.

Also we absolutely have become more wedded to gender stereotypes particularly for girls.

valdavi

If the issue is that people don't want to conform to gender stereotypes, I can't understand why the incidence of gender dysphoria is so much greater now, when you can dress how you want, openly love who you want, do the job you choose, than in the past.
Maybe it is somehow linked to autism, which has definitely increased more than can be explained by better recognition.Or maybe some of these teenagers are just going through phases / it's cool now.

With some people, it's not just the gender stereotypes & the way their mind works - they long to be in a female / male body, even to the point of self-mutilation. It is unfair to deny these young people access to gender dysphoria services, just because trans rights have been pushed to an extreme (absurd?) point recently. This feels like a backlash.

If only your first paragraph were true. It isn't. In fact life was simpler when it was male/female and nothing else, now it is be what you like in rpinciple but not in practice.

You only have to hear the stories of those who are trans - or gay, or in any way not 'normal' to know the bullying name calling and isolation they suffer. It is more confusing because, like you, Valdavi everyone says you are free to be whatever you want, but if you try to be what ever you want you get hounded.

I absolutely agree with all the caution and young people understanding as far as possible consequences of decisions - and for that matter people seeking help at the age of 18 when after a long waiting list they have yet more time to decide - and this is why gender services are much needed to work through the process -

but there are transgender adults who are happy to have changed and live fruitful lives - some of us know them.

I'm not a biologist either, Macadia, but I don't think so, as 'gender' is just a set of social conventions. There is nothing about human development that makes pink a colour for girls (in fact that was a recent development) and in different cultures men wear garments more akin to dresses than trousers. Fifty years ago, most women didn't drink pints, and would mostly put lime in a half of lager to sweeten it. Tattoos were for sailors and convicts at one time, whereas now it's not uncommon for women to have tattoos and drink pints of real ale. It's fashion, and changes over time and place.

I don't think anything that happens in the womb can make someone prefer one set of norms to another. Until the explosion of trans 'issues' it was becoming much more usual for gender norms to be blurred - as women got tattoos and drank pints, men could push prams and do housework without comment, which wasn't the case in my father's generation. Gay people gained acceptance and children given options instead of 'girls' and 'boys' toys. Then all of a sudden boys who wanted to play with dolls and wear a princess outfit were told they were 'in the wrong body' and that they could 'become a girl', and the progress was lost. Gay people stopped being accepted by the trans movement, and told they were 'same-gender attracted', which basically eradicates homosexuality.

There does seem to be a link with autism, particularly with non-binary young people (that is an observation purely based on my experience of working in a university, and hearing from friends who teach in schools) and I wonder whether that is because if certain things are presented as being for boys and a boy prefers the ones supposedly for girls it is difficult for a neurodiverse brain to process? Deciding that if girls like these things and I like them too I must be a girl might seem more straightforward? I don't know - as I say, I am not an expert, but it seems to me more likely than something biological happening before birth.

This is a very interesting discussion topic. Gender seems to be a spectrum. All humans are presumed female until their 5th or 6th week in the womb when their chromosomes force them into males (I'm not a biologist or educated so I'm just guessing). Could it be that something occurs during that time period that doesn't develop commonly? I am writing this as a parent to an autistic child.

Wyllow they have been wrong on this issue every step of the way, the organisations involved have made error after error, often with dreadful results, I wouldn't trust those organisations with a goldfish let alone with vulnerable children.

This. 100%

Some people are determined to push the trans agenda, particularly since the ruling about biological sex was announced.

It’s reminiscent of the days of posters on GN recommending Lush for providing breast binders without parental knowledge?

I’m concerned about both support and protection.

The need for support until they are sufficiently mature to understand the future ramifications of what they want is vitally important. But the support needs to make things clear, not hide behind words like changing gender, whilst there still exists conflation fallacy between sex and gender.

It’s important that children are not encouraged to see gender as the gateway to changing sex-which is impossible.

It’s important that they understand as early as possible that boys or girls can never be the opposite sex, no matter what chemical or surgical treatments they undergo.
That that some treatments may make it impossible for them to change their mind. Or equally impossible to live a satisfactory life as their chosen trans persona or the person they were before.

The protection for children too young to understand the future, from the increasing number of parents who make the decision for their children because they wanted a child of the opposite sex, and then boast about it in the media.

Deedaa the title of this thread is a little misleading. A child or adult who presents with gender issues will already be assessed as to whether they are autistic already. Part of whats in the Cass Report.

Here is the report
www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-implementing-the-cass-review-recommendations/#:~:text=Recommendation%202:%20Clinicians%20should%20apply,going%20onto%20a%20medical%20pathway.

You can find the specific recommendation under
"Implementation – service specification"

Recommendation 2

"The service specification will propose that all children are offered fertility counselling. Recommendation 10.
Recommendation 2: Clinicians should apply the assessment framework developed by the Review’s Clinical Expert Group, to ensure children/young people referred to NHS gender services receive a holistic assessment of their needs to inform an individualised care plan. This should include screening for neurodevelopmental conditions, including autism spectrum disorder, and a mental health assessment. The framework should be kept under review and evolve to reflect emerging evidence

I can quite see that a child who feels "apart" from other children might think that perhaps they might fit in better if they were a different sex. When I was at school I longed for someone to explain how other people behaved, because I got it wrong all the time. I also longed to be a boy because they seemed to do things that I enjoyed. However I think I would have been just as much of a misfit as a boy. The years it takes to get any sort of diagnosis makes it seem unlikely that this scheme will ever get off the ground.

I wouldn't trust the NHS as they seem incapable of distinguishing between a male and a female. Letting them loose on children? No.

If the issue is that people don't want to conform to gender stereotypes, I can't understand why the incidence of gender dysphoria is so much greater now, when you can dress how you want, openly love who you want, do the job you choose, than in the past.
Maybe it is somehow linked to autism, which has definitely increased more than can be explained by better recognition.Or maybe some of these teenagers are just going through phases / it's cool now.

With some people, it's not just the gender stereotypes & the way their mind works - they long to be in a female / male body, even to the point of self-mutilation. It is unfair to deny these young people access to gender dysphoria services, just because trans rights have been pushed to an extreme (absurd?) point recently. This feels like a backlash.

Galaxy

Wyllow they have been wrong on this issue every step of the way, the organisations involved have made error after error, often with dreadful results, I wouldn't trust those organisations with a goldfish let alone with vulnerable children.

The 2 new clinics have a totally different approach from the Tavistock.

I think that there is very reason to be cautious after that but unless there is information about poor practice from the new provision I wouldn't assume what you say is the case or generalise

Here is Alderhey.
www.alderhey.nhs.uk/services/the-nhs-children-and-young-peoples-gender-service-north-west/

Its too early for them to have had a CQC rating.

Nobody is born into the 'wrong' body. The problem lies wth the society we live in, which still dictates that what makes someone male or female, is not just biology but a whole host of behaviours that are considered appropriate for a man or woman. These are as basic as what clothes each sex wears to how they act and behave in public and private, their likes and dislikes.

I worked most of my working life in the engineering industry and was fascinated to see how many women felt that they had to justify being engineers by otherwise behaving and dressing in a manner that asserted their femininity.

People think in gender dysmorphic terms because they find themselves so much at odds with other people of the same sex who will not accept them for themselves.

At various times in my adolscence and twenties other women accused me of 'thinking like a man' and this was never said as a compliment. Similarly, my husband, an engineer, never said anything at work about his fascination with opera, whenever anything like that was mentioned at work the person concerned would be described as homosexual - as an insult. Obviously being gay is not the the same as being dysmorphic. No wonder those dismissed by others of their biological sex as not female or male enough, start wondering whether they have the right mind in the wrong body.

Leave sex to biology and let people act, dress and be what they want to be without being set upon, by a society forcing them to conform.

Wyllow they have been wrong on this issue every step of the way, the organisations involved have made error after error, often with dreadful results, I wouldn't trust those organisations with a goldfish let alone with vulnerable children.