The NHS will test all children who believe they are transgender for autism under new plans seen by The Telegraph.

FGT Agree 100%.

FGT2 Have to agree.Under 18s are considered not to be mature enough to realise consequences when it comes to law infringements and that should be applied to transgender changing.

The problem is that referrals to CAMHS are one thing, but getting an actual appointment is another.The wait can be years. Having said that I know there are too many autistic teenagers unsure of their sexuality/ gender having read about it. What it needs is for somebody who understands them to reassure these children/ young people that it’s natural for them to be unsure and just give it time, and themselves time to grow up.

I really disagree.

I support the Cass report which has set up two centres for young people expressing gender dysphoria. These stand alongside local CAMHS.

Waiting lists are no shorter - they are long for both CAMHS and the Cass clinics. (and the adult clinics from 18)

The Gender clinics take exactly the holistic approach described above, with much needed specific expertise in working with the whole range of young people from those who are autistic or have other neurodevelopment on the one hand,

and those who are not "mentally ill", don't need CAMHS but face difficult choices ahead time to think and support until they are 18 and can register at an adult gender clinic.

There are 8 Adult Gender Clinics around the country and in these discussions can continue and treatment if it's the right way ahead.

Again, they are holistic, people may make choices to make no changes, to do what Oreo says,

for both teenage and adult clinics to support people taking their time and it being OK to be unsure and this is surely a valuable part of what the NHS can offer.

Pulling out of gender dysphoria means a two tier society with those who can afford help/treatment going ahead with possibly dodgy clinics who don't have this holistic approach and is just out to make money.

But ultimately, yes, I think the NHS should pay for meds or surgery where it's appropriate.

It seems to me that the O/P is suggesting that genuine gender dysphoria either doesnt exist or that people shouldn't get our societies support.

I think the supreme Court ruling actually also impacts how we will treat children as we move forward. It appears to me to be deeply cruel for the NHS to say to children you can change sex when it isn't true. I would also like them as a matter of urgency to show some vague interest in the detransition rate, the unprecented increase in this amongst young girls and some of the information that seems to be appearing about wellbeing after physical transition.

Every child referred to a gender clinic will be “screened for neurodevelopmental conditions” such as autism and ADHD under new guidance, to be introduced in the wake of the Cass review.
Judging by the comments on GN and MN, they’ll be lucky to get an appointment to be assessed for neurodiversity before they leave school.
I know enough neurodivergent children and their parents via looking after DGS, to know how hard getting an appointments is.

I think there’s a good reason for studying this, but if the waiting list for neurodivergent children who say they are trans becomes quicker, what impact might that have on parents already desperate for help for their neurodivergent child?

It would be deeply cruel for the NHS to deny the reality that some children really are "born in the wrong body" and whatever the time or society they were born in, would have an insuperable urge to live as the opposite gender as an adult.And hate their body.
I think you can still change your legal gender. The Supreme Court ruled that the in the Equalities Act, the legal term "woman" refers exclusively to a biological woman. It didn't end gender transformation surgery or the right of trans people to change their legal gender.

It is beyond words to tell children their bodies are wrong, even the transgender organisations have abandoned that descriptor. You will be telling children they can change their 'gender' whatever that may mean, but as a society we are now clearly saying transwomen are not women. It us not ethical to promise young people something that cannot be delivered.

Does it say how this is to be funded? I.e what other CAMHS services are likely to be scaled back to accommodate it?
I agree with FGT on this.

The waiting lists for referral for the children's gender clinics are longer than the average wait for assessments for autism.

My DiL works in County Durham in a CAMHS team, specifically and mostly with Autistic Children and has given me this information, but waiting list times can be found online as well.

Both are grossly underfunded as is Mental Health provision generally.

winterwhite

Does it say how this is to be funded? I.e what other CAMHS services are likely to be scaled back to accommodate it?
I agree with FGT on this.

winterwhite It is already funded and has been since the inception of provision in this field, it is not taking away money from any other CAMHS field.

Galaxy

It is beyond words to tell children their bodies are wrong, even the transgender organisations have abandoned that descriptor. You will be telling children they can change their 'gender' whatever that may mean, but as a society we are now clearly saying transwomen are not women. It us not ethical to promise young people something that cannot be delivered.

The holistic approach does not tell children or adults they are wrong in making decisions either way.

Proper counselling and therapy is to support a person in making the best outcome for their own lives. It doesn't deny nor confirm a fixed outcome.

People cannot become a women or man if they are not born in that sex but they may after much thought become transmen or transwomen.

Wyllow they have been wrong on this issue every step of the way, the organisations involved have made error after error, often with dreadful results, I wouldn't trust those organisations with a goldfish let alone with vulnerable children.

Nobody is born into the 'wrong' body. The problem lies wth the society we live in, which still dictates that what makes someone male or female, is not just biology but a whole host of behaviours that are considered appropriate for a man or woman. These are as basic as what clothes each sex wears to how they act and behave in public and private, their likes and dislikes.

I worked most of my working life in the engineering industry and was fascinated to see how many women felt that they had to justify being engineers by otherwise behaving and dressing in a manner that asserted their femininity.

People think in gender dysmorphic terms because they find themselves so much at odds with other people of the same sex who will not accept them for themselves.

At various times in my adolscence and twenties other women accused me of 'thinking like a man' and this was never said as a compliment. Similarly, my husband, an engineer, never said anything at work about his fascination with opera, whenever anything like that was mentioned at work the person concerned would be described as homosexual - as an insult. Obviously being gay is not the the same as being dysmorphic. No wonder those dismissed by others of their biological sex as not female or male enough, start wondering whether they have the right mind in the wrong body.

Leave sex to biology and let people act, dress and be what they want to be without being set upon, by a society forcing them to conform.

Galaxy

Wyllow they have been wrong on this issue every step of the way, the organisations involved have made error after error, often with dreadful results, I wouldn't trust those organisations with a goldfish let alone with vulnerable children.

The 2 new clinics have a totally different approach from the Tavistock.

I think that there is very reason to be cautious after that but unless there is information about poor practice from the new provision I wouldn't assume what you say is the case or generalise

Here is Alderhey.
www.alderhey.nhs.uk/services/the-nhs-children-and-young-peoples-gender-service-north-west/

Its too early for them to have had a CQC rating.

If the issue is that people don't want to conform to gender stereotypes, I can't understand why the incidence of gender dysphoria is so much greater now, when you can dress how you want, openly love who you want, do the job you choose, than in the past.
Maybe it is somehow linked to autism, which has definitely increased more than can be explained by better recognition.Or maybe some of these teenagers are just going through phases / it's cool now.

With some people, it's not just the gender stereotypes & the way their mind works - they long to be in a female / male body, even to the point of self-mutilation. It is unfair to deny these young people access to gender dysphoria services, just because trans rights have been pushed to an extreme (absurd?) point recently. This feels like a backlash.

I wouldn't trust the NHS as they seem incapable of distinguishing between a male and a female. Letting them loose on children? No.

I can quite see that a child who feels "apart" from other children might think that perhaps they might fit in better if they were a different sex. When I was at school I longed for someone to explain how other people behaved, because I got it wrong all the time. I also longed to be a boy because they seemed to do things that I enjoyed. However I think I would have been just as much of a misfit as a boy. The years it takes to get any sort of diagnosis makes it seem unlikely that this scheme will ever get off the ground.

Deedaa the title of this thread is a little misleading. A child or adult who presents with gender issues will already be assessed as to whether they are autistic already. Part of whats in the Cass Report.

Here is the report
www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/children-and-young-peoples-gender-services-implementing-the-cass-review-recommendations/#:~:text=Recommendation%202:%20Clinicians%20should%20apply,going%20onto%20a%20medical%20pathway.

You can find the specific recommendation under
"Implementation – service specification"

Recommendation 2

"The service specification will propose that all children are offered fertility counselling. Recommendation 10.
Recommendation 2: Clinicians should apply the assessment framework developed by the Review’s Clinical Expert Group, to ensure children/young people referred to NHS gender services receive a holistic assessment of their needs to inform an individualised care plan. This should include screening for neurodevelopmental conditions, including autism spectrum disorder, and a mental health assessment. The framework should be kept under review and evolve to reflect emerging evidence

Some people are determined to push the trans agenda, particularly since the ruling about biological sex was announced.

It’s reminiscent of the days of posters on GN recommending Lush for providing breast binders without parental knowledge?

I’m concerned about both support and protection.

The need for support until they are sufficiently mature to understand the future ramifications of what they want is vitally important. But the support needs to make things clear, not hide behind words like changing gender, whilst there still exists conflation fallacy between sex and gender.

It’s important that children are not encouraged to see gender as the gateway to changing sex-which is impossible.

It’s important that they understand as early as possible that boys or girls can never be the opposite sex, no matter what chemical or surgical treatments they undergo.
That that some treatments may make it impossible for them to change their mind. Or equally impossible to live a satisfactory life as their chosen trans persona or the person they were before.

The protection for children too young to understand the future, from the increasing number of parents who make the decision for their children because they wanted a child of the opposite sex, and then boast about it in the media.

Wyllow they have been wrong on this issue every step of the way, the organisations involved have made error after error, often with dreadful results, I wouldn't trust those organisations with a goldfish let alone with vulnerable children.

This. 100%

This is a very interesting discussion topic. Gender seems to be a spectrum. All humans are presumed female until their 5th or 6th week in the womb when their chromosomes force them into males (I'm not a biologist or educated so I'm just guessing). Could it be that something occurs during that time period that doesn't develop commonly? I am writing this as a parent to an autistic child.

I'm not a biologist either, Macadia, but I don't think so, as 'gender' is just a set of social conventions. There is nothing about human development that makes pink a colour for girls (in fact that was a recent development) and in different cultures men wear garments more akin to dresses than trousers. Fifty years ago, most women didn't drink pints, and would mostly put lime in a half of lager to sweeten it. Tattoos were for sailors and convicts at one time, whereas now it's not uncommon for women to have tattoos and drink pints of real ale. It's fashion, and changes over time and place.

I don't think anything that happens in the womb can make someone prefer one set of norms to another. Until the explosion of trans 'issues' it was becoming much more usual for gender norms to be blurred - as women got tattoos and drank pints, men could push prams and do housework without comment, which wasn't the case in my father's generation. Gay people gained acceptance and children given options instead of 'girls' and 'boys' toys. Then all of a sudden boys who wanted to play with dolls and wear a princess outfit were told they were 'in the wrong body' and that they could 'become a girl', and the progress was lost. Gay people stopped being accepted by the trans movement, and told they were 'same-gender attracted', which basically eradicates homosexuality.

There does seem to be a link with autism, particularly with non-binary young people (that is an observation purely based on my experience of working in a university, and hearing from friends who teach in schools) and I wonder whether that is because if certain things are presented as being for boys and a boy prefers the ones supposedly for girls it is difficult for a neurodiverse brain to process? Deciding that if girls like these things and I like them too I must be a girl might seem more straightforward? I don't know - as I say, I am not an expert, but it seems to me more likely than something biological happening before birth.

I absolutely agree with all the caution and young people understanding as far as possible consequences of decisions - and for that matter people seeking help at the age of 18 when after a long waiting list they have yet more time to decide - and this is why gender services are much needed to work through the process -

but there are transgender adults who are happy to have changed and live fruitful lives - some of us know them.