The NHS will test all children who believe they are transgender for autism under new plans seen by The Telegraph.

Yes, that’s how it was presented in the A level textbook all those years ago😀.

Galaxy

There is also the feminist perspective that gender is a range of stereotypes which frequently have a negative impact on both men and women.

Couldn't agree more.

Doodledog

I remember learning about gender as part of a Sociology A level in the 70s. It was largely to do with the socialisation of children - clothes, toys, expectations etc - and was always distinct from sex.

Yes, when the main concern was about whether boys should play with dolls, even those like Action Man. Even then there was a move away from only gender specific toys. Or school subjects, like should boys be doing domestic science or girls doing woodwork and metalwork.
Sex education never taught about clothes, toys etc. it still doesn't at primary level.

I remember learning about gender as part of a Sociology A level in the 70s. It was largely to do with the socialisation of children - clothes, toys, expectations etc - and was always distinct from sex.

Interesting, Wyllow3.

What a shame gender was seized by some TIM and all TRA as an excuse to use in their campaign to overthrow women’s rights.

I think a conflation of the two inadvertently happened way way back when we set up Gender Studies late 1970's onwards.

Didn't call them "Women's studies" as part of the aim was to be able to examine Male stereotypes and misogyny and power relationships.

I agree. It would be so useful if there were a ruling about it, and saying that questions about 'gender' should not be used on forms of any description without suitable clarification of how the word is being used. If a research project is about so-called 'gender' there could be something about how you describe yourself, but the other questions should cover the rest. Otherwise, 'sex' is enough in most cases.

People have sleepwalked into this conflation of the two, and I am convinced that this was a deliberate tactic. I am sure I read/heard/heard that someone from Stonewall has admitted this, but I can't be sure and can't remember enough about it to cite anything properly.

There is also the feminist perspective that gender is a range of stereotypes which frequently have a negative impact on both men and women.

Rosie51

I wish the first thing to be discontinued is the use of 'gender' to mean biological sex or some inner feeling of identity that some people experience. Even transactivists who at the early part of their campaigning said sex and gender were separate things now interchange as suits their purpose.

PN Scientific progress can challenge and expand all understanding of gender, moving away from rigid binary thinking towards a recognition of diversity. how are you using gender here? Do you mean biological sex or that inner feeling and maybe stereotype presentation?

Excellent Rosie51

I think huge numbers of the general public are confused and don't differentiate. Including those who are trans aware but haven't taken part in the detailed debates.

I always make an effort to explain: biological sex is what you are born with, gender is a social construction how you live your life and what/who you identify as

Always felt it benefits no one to conflate the two.

I wish the first thing to be discontinued is the use of 'gender' to mean biological sex or some inner feeling of identity that some people experience. Even transactivists who at the early part of their campaigning said sex and gender were separate things now interchange as suits their purpose.

PN Scientific progress can challenge and expand all understanding of gender, moving away from rigid binary thinking towards a recognition of diversity. how are you using gender here? Do you mean biological sex or that inner feeling and maybe stereotype presentation?

Thankfully, having a BIID child isn’t seen as an advantage yet.

www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(00)82030-9/abstract

Only the opening lines are available without registering, but whatever age these patients are it sounds so wrong.

I am glad to see the doctors are acting as they should - as scientists. They don't seem afraid to say they don't know everything but that knowledge is growing every day.

Scientific progress can challenge and expand all understanding of gender, moving away from rigid binary thinking towards a recognition of diversity. However, it could also reinforce binary distinctions if society choses to emphasise traditional categories.

Because we are in a time of change (and not just in this area) its important cultural, ethical, and political frameworks are informed and listened to.

Sadly, having a trans child, or trans children, or failing that, a non-binary child seems to be an essential fashion accessory for some celebrities or even wannabe celebrities nowadays.

I wonder how much counselling these children got before they were opted in/allowed to have, something where they can’t possibly understand the future ramifications.

Thankfully, having a BIID child isn’t seen as an advantage yet.

sazz1
I’m sorry about the results for your friend’s offspring, especially if there’s no going back.

My friend has a trans daughter. They have always had a learning disability but still went ahead with surgery. Now, 15 years later they really regret it but no way of going back.
I'm glad they are looking at this in children now. Perhaps it will save others from making a huge mistake. On the other hand 2 trans people I know have no regrets and are very happy with their lives, but they don't have learning disabilities, autism, mental health etc.

Allira, it is just as likely I did not press the right button. Ha.

Agree 👍

Luminance

Allira, I answered you and it vanished into the ether. I don't trust people who can't be accountable or apologise, it is true. I was replying to something else that was said that was untrue on a personal level so that is the context, I wasn't staying anything about opinions of which there are many. I am very often wrong I am sure but I am not sharing my opinion here as necessarily right or wrong just as it is.

Sometimes I think you can post a reply at the exact same time as another poster and it disappears. It has happened to me.

Wyllow3

Allira

What happens now with people like Dr McCloud who have had their sex changed on their birth certificates?
Presumably after this ruling, as a legal document, it is now false.

Clearly the status and meaning of this has to be clarified for everyones' sake.

Some serious googling results in

"The recent Supreme Court ruling on the definition of "woman" in the Equality Act 2010, specifically in relation to transgender people, has several implications for the Gender Recognition Act (GRA) 2004. While the GRA itself remains in effect, the Supreme Court's interpretation of "sex" in the Equality Act, which defines it as biological sex, means that a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC) does not automatically confer the legal status of "woman" for the purposes of the Equality Act."

however

"In essence, the Supreme Court's ruling clarifies that the GRA and the Equality Act operate in different legal contexts, with the Equality Act focusing on biological sex for specific purposes, while the GRA focuses on legal recognition of gender identity"

So birth certificates which were changed due to erroneous beliefs at that time should be corrected but a GRC could be carried with it for explanatory reasons.

The difficulty is that those who don’t accept the ruling that only biological women are women and only biological men are men will continue to try and conflate sex (real) with gender identity (in the mind) to suit their own purposes.

Doodledog
Your post that
On passports it would make sense to have something that indicates that a person is male but 'identifies' as female (or vice versa) in case of accident or imprisonment when abroad. It feels like a security risk to have someone cross a border as 'female' when they are biologically male. It must hamper the policing of any incidents that occur.

seems a good idea.

Or include it in the detailed guidance on the new act when it's published? I dont know

I think in that case they will have to change GRC law and what it can do legally.

I realise that my post above is contradictory. Clearly I do understand why sex news to be declared - not so gender though.

I'm not really sure why it's necessary to have sex declared on a passport. I'm almost certain that 'gender' is not relevant, as it's all in the mind. I don't mean that disrespectfully, incidentally - it's just that 'gender' is not measurable, and not easy to define as it changes over time and across cultures, so it's not clear to me why you need it on a driving licence.

I don't think that birth certificates should be allowed to be altered, as they are official records.

On passports it would make sense to have something that indicates that a person is male but 'identifies' as female (or vice versa) in case of accident or imprisonment when abroad. It feels like a security risk to have someone cross a border as 'female' when they are biologically male. It must hamper the policing of any incidents that occur.

As regards the GMC I'm sure they will be sensible/follow the law, just will be interested in what they discuss.

Thats as much as I know Doodledog. Will there be issues around still being able to change birth certificates, passports, driving licences, I dont know.