Trump said: “On immigration you better get your act together or you’re not going to have Europe anymore.”

Woodenspoon, to help us understand could you explain which EU rules you would put under that heading, and what way the rules benefitted other countries but not ours? Or was it simply that our country chose not to use the rules in the way others did.

Your comparison between Germany and us wouldn't apply now (as we are out of the EU) so would you mind giving some dates?

Thank you!

Of course comparisons apply and are important, because even amongst EU members, several countries are asserting more of an independent rôle within that organisation.

I have a neighbour from Belgium who has recently settled in the UK and we meet every week for coffee, and a chat in French. She tells me that Belgium is now moving away from its once unquestioned commitment to the EU and its foreign policymaking.
For example, the new Belgian government is tightening its migration policies, looking after number one more you could say, which is quite a change in approach from what used to be a very humanitarian country. I think, nothing to do with Brexit, this reflects what is happening in wider Europe too. Governments are pushing for stricter border controls, more rigorous asylum procedures etc. In Belgium newcomers now have to wait five years before becoming eligible for social aid. The only family members who can come and join the migrant are a spouse or a child of that person.

Inevitably at the back of every country's mind is security for themselves in more ways than one. Joined up thinking amongst EU members doesn't come into it, and I'm not holding my breath that it ever will, looking again the way things are going.

“No deal is better than a bad deal”.
I think most who voted to Leave would’ve accepted that politicsNerd.

Article 8 of the ECHR has us by the short and curlies.

We should’ve been braver. More assured of our sovereignty. Played poker better with “there’s a special place in Hell” Mr Donald Tusk. We were spineless in our negotiations but we were hog tied. The government of the day/Parliament never wanted Brexit. We had the Civil Service against anything remotely deviating from EU rules.

Ah well.
No more from me about Past Times.
Too much water under that bridge now to revisit it all.

It was never going to work because it was based on lies. And now leave voters are just finding excuses as to why it failed; the biggest act of self harm that a country has ever done to itself and, no, I'm not going to forget it because we're still paying the price.

Brexit didnt fail as far as I am concerned. Far from it.
It saved us from all sorts.

It is a bit like Health and Safety.
People cannot see the things that didnt happen.
And cant quantify it well either.
How can they?
Talking about things that did not happen, which would have done.

Yes, Brexit could have worked out better, Politicans could have made it so, but it is all so much better than the alternatives.

All YouGov surveys show progressively more people regret Brexit and want to rejoin the EU. It’s currently at 55%, compared with 30% who do not want to. It is defined by both age and voting pattern.

Well, I booted to remain but I don't think it would be a good idea to rejoin even if we could.

Forming a different type of liaison, closer links and trade deals with the EU would be the best way forward.

booted?
Voted.

I saw the results of the poll you mention Casdon. It would be interesting to see the results if it had asked respondents: “Do you wish to rejoin the EU at the cost of around £10 billion a year and the replacement of the pound with the Euro?”
🤔 Another interesting poll question would be:-
“Would you vote in favour of Brexit if the government and civil service were actually willing to properly implement leaving the EU, and not deliberately try to scupper it in every possible way?”

I’d guess if they were given the full facts people would still vote to rejoin FriedGreenTomatoes2, given the estimated significant economic losses for the UK to date. There has been substantial hit to the public finances and a reduction in overall economic output. Our economy is estimated to be smaller than it would have been had we stayed in the EU, with some reports placing the reduction at £140 billion. This decline is mainly attributed to decreased trade with the EU, increased trade barriers, and a reduction in foreign investment. 10 billion a year is relatively small compared with 30 billion a year. It’s not just me saying that, there is a lot of information online including forecasts.
It was a political choice to leave, not an economic choice.

and a reduction in foreign investment

Oh I think having Rachel Reeves in charge for the last 12 months has influenced this Casdon? Things are never black or white are they? Shades of grey abound.

I would vote Leave again in a heartbeat. So would everyone I know who voted that way. If we were in a minority then so be it. I would abide by a democratic vote.

But it’s not going to happen. We will realign by stealth …

Unless of course Reform smash it in 4 years. Who knows? But there’s no appetite for another referendum.

Unless of course Reform smash it in 4 years

If Reform ‘smash it’ in 4 years, Brexit will be one of our lesser worries!

Allira

Well, I booted to remain but I don't think it would be a good idea to rejoin even if we could.

Forming a different type of liaison, closer links and trade deals with the EU would be the best way forward.

Same here.

FriedGreenTomatoes2

^and a reduction in foreign investment^

Oh I think having Rachel Reeves in charge for the last 12 months has influenced this Casdon? Things are never black or white are they? Shades of grey abound.

I would vote Leave again in a heartbeat. So would everyone I know who voted that way. If we were in a minority then so be it. I would abide by a democratic vote.

But it’s not going to happen. We will realign by stealth …

Unless of course Reform smash it in 4 years. Who knows? But there’s no appetite for another referendum.

It’s a long game FriedGreenTomatoes2, you can’t look at the impact of a year, or even the term of a government. The economists view is that the impact on the UK is a long term reduction in economic output, which will be significant going forward. Estimates are around 5% lower, from what I’ve seen, which is not good news for the UK. It won’t change anything if Reform get in, how would they increase our output by the billions required to make even a 1% difference?

LizzieDrip

^Unless of course Reform smash it in 4 years^

If Reform ‘smash it’ in 4 years, Brexit will be one of our lesser worries!

I just spoke to my ex husband who read Reforms manifesto; I just wondered how many of it’s supporters have done so and, if they have can they tell me the stand out policies contained in it.

It won’t change anything if Reform get in, how would they increase our output by the billions required to make even a 1% difference?

I think Reform will tackle many things differently. It won’t be the ‘status quo’ of the UniParty that for sure.

We won’t be spending ££s millions per day on irregular migrants. There will be a knock on effect from that in many ways. Deportations of Albanians from our prisons another plus - said to be 10,000. More spaces for our own bad boys. Good.

They plan root & branch reform. It will likely not happen (they won’t be the government) but it’s entertaining listening to so much common sense …

I was just thinking how close some of the posts came to areas of agreement until I read your last post FGT.

"They plan" ... of course they do. But not for your good or mine, only for a society that works for them. I wonder how you can still believe this will be good for all while watching how Trump is following his "plan", removing or intending to removed health-care, sweeping people off the streets who have done nothing wrong except looked like the wrong type of person, attempting to remove habeas corpus, the independence of the judiciary, etc., etc.

Yes a Farage government would certainly change things but not with the everyday man or women in mind.

This is specifically about economic output though FriedGreenTomatoes2? If every migrant is returned to their own country at zero cost, and no more arrive, it will barely scratch the surface of what we have lost, because it is cumulative. Add to that the confrontational relationship Reform have with Europe, and the fact that thus far they have no known economic plan, we could very easily end up in a worse position than we are now.

I suppose it’s all speculation anyway PoliticsNerd and Casdon. Reform won’t be forming the next government (in my humble) as I said. But they’ll hold feet to the fire over the next 4 years. Focus minds. Time to get the 🍿 out.

It’s not going to be boring at least 🤔

Oreo

It’s not going to be boring at least 🤔

May you live in interesting times.