No carol singing in school....

Claremont

Yes, agreed, Church services is where they belong, with believers, as their choice. Although our local Vicar was always very clear at Midnight Service, with the 'so lovely to see so many of you here tonight- would be even nicer to see some of you sometimes on a Sunday'.

What a horrible thing for a vicar to have said at midnight mass, if it is true. People should be truly welcomed into church whenever they choose to attend. Being churlish when you do see them is hardly likely to make them want to come back.

Taught at a variety of high schools over the last 40 years and there has always been Carol singing.
I have also attended many Carol services in the lead up to Christmas at my grandchildren’s schools.

I give up.

GrannyRose15

Claremont

Yes, agreed, Church services is where they belong, with believers, as their choice. Although our local Vicar was always very clear at Midnight Service, with the 'so lovely to see so many of you here tonight- would be even nicer to see some of you sometimes on a Sunday'.

What a horrible thing for a vicar to have said at midnight mass, if it is true. People should be truly welcomed into church whenever they choose to attend. Being churlish when you do see them is hardly likely to make them want to come back.

My naternal DGP was a vicar. He would have said something like, "it would be lovely to see some of you amongst us on Sundays. We offer a warm welcome".

My youngest GCs go to a multi cultural school where at the last count there were 74 different languages spoken. They have learned about Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and Islam. They recognise a number of religious festivals from these religions. They are also recognised as a School of Sanctuary.

At Christmas they sometimes have a Fair, make decorations and visit a local church for a carol service. They also learn secular Christmas songs. I’m not sure but I think most children do most activities as that is the ethos of the school.

The school also has a fair number of SEND children who are well integrated.

The school as you can tell is a huge mixture of different cultures and maintains its exceptional rating. My GCs are receiving education in the broadest sense of the term. It’s a very happy school in a not very affluent area of the NE, displaying all the best of human beliefs of whatever religion.

You don’t have to go to church to hear or be involved with Carolling at Christmas or at any other time.

Schools vary. Here, the choices of secondary education allow parents and child to decide the best fit for them.
My GS attends the school that his mother and aunts went to, enjoying it's rich musical tradition.
My son, his uncle, chose the alternative, as it's selling point was encouraging sport.
Both were, and are, in addition, high achieving grammar schools.

I'm not sure about "birthright". Some schools and Churches in poorer areas do wonderful, uplifting things.Things change, demographics, culture, language, music.

I sing in a group where we enjoy singing in the Maori language. What a wonderful oppotunity.

Nanny27

I taught in secondary schools for many years and don't recall any type of singing really. I'm not sure when people imagine it would happen. Music lessons? No, students are generally rugged into headphones. Assembly? These are long gone in most schools, reduced to a few notices from head of year at best.

These days secondary schools in England (rest of UK is different?), only KS3 pupils do regular music lessons (and those few KS4 & 5 pupils who opt for GCSE or A level music) and I think they tend to be pupils creating music (keyboards & headphones with a presentation at the end)

In 1960s we did whole school hymn practice in the hall after assembly, and that time was taken out of first period, sometimes ten minutes, sometimes 40 minutes which was all of period 1 then). Academic time these days is more organised. I never thought of this as cultural. Since 1970s it's rare for whole school to be together as there is no space.

School choirs are extracurricular.

Truly, there is no wokery involved, this is the last 50yrs I'm describing.

Sorry, but if you want your children to learn carols, take them to church.

Sorry, but if you want your children to learn carols, take them to church.

I want my GC, and indeed all children, to have the opportunity to engage in music of all kinds: from all cultures, instrumental and vocal etc.

I do not want them to miss out on the beautiful music from whatever inspirational source: nature, the Christmas story, whatever.

Music is indeed the birthright of every child - it is fundamental to human expression. Killing this off by neglect is fundamentally wrong.

Sport in school attracts financial grant in the form of the "Sports Premium" - which is fine. When oh when will there be a music and arts premium? Have our governments become such philistines that they count beans above nurturing creative qualities in our children? Music does not have to be confined to those with native talent or opportunity - participation in music is a joy that should be open to all. If children do not experience it they will not seek these life-enhancing opportunities.

And anyway, the firm evidence for music participation improving academic grades, good behaviour and social cohesion is very clear.

It CAN be done - my DGS is heading to sixth form college where he will be doing A-level music and there are some highly qualified and respected tutors. He has also auditioned (and passed) for their Music Academy branch and he will be given lots of performance opportunities in his chosen instrument - he is a talented jazz guitarist. BUT - he has chosen this because earlier on in his education he was exposed to music and performance from home encouragement and a private secondary school with an excellent musical tradition. What about all those children who have had none of this, for whom this has all been outside their experience? - why would they even think these opportunities might apply to them?

Well said Luckygirl 👏👏👏

Music opens pathways in the brain, too, similar to those used in Mathematics.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with learning Christmas carols or other great hymns in school because they are all part of the culture of this country.
There is nothing wrong with learning about other religious festivals too. We are a multi-cultural society now but the Church of England is still the Established Church, at least in England.

StripeyGran

I'm not sure about "birthright". Some schools and Churches in poorer areas do wonderful, uplifting things.Things change, demographics, culture, language, music.

I sing in a group where we enjoy singing in the Maori language. What a wonderful oppotunity.

When it was Gallipoli Day (Anzac Day) and we had a service here, the local male voice choir sang a hymn in Maori.

Luckygirl3

*Sorry, but if you want your children to learn carols, take them to church.*

I want my GC, and indeed all children, to have the opportunity to engage in music of all kinds: from all cultures, instrumental and vocal etc.

I do not want them to miss out on the beautiful music from whatever inspirational source: nature, the Christmas story, whatever.

Music is indeed the birthright of every child - it is fundamental to human expression. Killing this off by neglect is fundamentally wrong.

Sport in school attracts financial grant in the form of the "Sports Premium" - which is fine. When oh when will there be a music and arts premium? Have our governments become such philistines that they count beans above nurturing creative qualities in our children? Music does not have to be confined to those with native talent or opportunity - participation in music is a joy that should be open to all. If children do not experience it they will not seek these life-enhancing opportunities.

And anyway, the firm evidence for music participation improving academic grades, good behaviour and social cohesion is very clear.

It CAN be done - my DGS is heading to sixth form college where he will be doing A-level music and there are some highly qualified and respected tutors. He has also auditioned (and passed) for their Music Academy branch and he will be given lots of performance opportunities in his chosen instrument - he is a talented jazz guitarist. BUT - he has chosen this because earlier on in his education he was exposed to music and performance from home encouragement and a private secondary school with an excellent musical tradition. What about all those children who have had none of this, for whom this has all been outside their experience? - why would they even think these opportunities might apply to them?

If, as you suggest, music is to be given a higher profile for every pupil, where will the time on a secondary timetable come from, or put it another way, which subject should be reduced?

Well - I could suggest subjects that I did at school and that my DDs did at school and that my GC are doing at school that I/they have never referred back to in any way whatsoever in general life.

However, I am in favour of a rounded education so recognize that breadth is important. It may be that oine of those subjects that I never even think about (and have forgotten about) might have fired my interest and led to greater things. But this is the same for music - so randomly excluding this from the mix is as wrong as ditching history for instance.

There is so much evidence of the value of music to young people (well to all of us) that ditching it is a foolish decision.

To disallow Christmas carols is short sighted and ignorant

Some lyrics are better than others. The Christian myth expressed by the lyrics should be taught respectfully as myth not swept under the carpet.

"Love came down at Christmas" is a lovely and true sentiment for a 'secular' such as myself. "Love came down at Christmas" does not imply love did not come to Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Humanists, or communists .

The Herald Angels sang for everyone who will listen respectfully, not only for Christians.

Away in a manger, there are little christs being born right now, we hope, even in these dark days.

Caleo

To disallow Christmas carols is short sighted and ignorant

Some lyrics are better than others. The Christian myth expressed by the lyrics should be taught respectfully as myth not swept under the carpet.

Well, depends what you call myth.
Much is true and Jesus was a historical figure, whether or not you believe Jesus was the Son of God.

there are little christs being born right now

Christ means anointed one or one chosen by God.
If someone is a non-believer, then that will not be happening.

Claremont

Yes, agreed, Church services is where they belong, with believers, as their choice. Although our local Vicar was always very clear at Midnight Service, with the 'so lovely to see so many of you here tonight- would be even nicer to see some of you sometimes on a Sunday'.

I could hardly disagree more!
Carols are part of our history and heritage as a Christian country going back many centuries. Many are indeed not even of Christian origin but may have roots in a pre-Christian society.
So they do not belong only in Church services - but on crisp Winters evenings round the houses collecting for some well deserved charity, or lifting our spirits when we hear Adeste Fideles played by a Brass Band in a shopping centre, a welcome antidote to the “music” of the tills.
You don’t have to be a card-carrying Christian to well up at little children singing Away In A Manger, or moved by Rossetti’s poignant In the Bleak Midwinter or cheered by the jolly Boar’s Head Carol.
No, these are a fundamental part of our shared heritage and should be part of every child’s musical upbringing.
To have shared that is to understand and perhaps missing out on that lies at the heart of this grave underestimation of Christmas Carols.

I don’t think they do do Carol services or singing carols in secondary schools we only ever went when the grandkids were in primary schools (but it’s always good to blame it on wokery or Muslims 🤣 ) my grandkids primary school was very multi culture and one year they did a singing evening and the children each told about the celebrations of their own culture it was lovely and very inclusive

Luckygirl3

Well - I could suggest subjects that I did at school and that my DDs did at school and that my GC are doing at school that I/they have never referred back to in any way whatsoever in general life.

However, I am in favour of a rounded education so recognize that breadth is important. It may be that oine of those subjects that I never even think about (and have forgotten about) might have fired my interest and led to greater things. But this is the same for music - so randomly excluding this from the mix is as wrong as ditching history for instance.

There is so much evidence of the value of music to young people (well to all of us) that ditching it is a foolish decision.

Who is randomly excluding music from schools?

Btw I think every A level class I taught had someone doing A level music in it. Maths & music is not an uncommon combination. So I didn't really understand the point about your grandson.

This isn't about no music in secondary schools, it's about no carol singing in secondary schools.

It's about both .....

Religion has inspired some beautiful music and art, I'm sure we would all agree. It's perfectly possible to appreciate it even if you don't have strong religious beliefs.
Christianity has been the backbone of our society for over a thousand years. Our laws are based on the 10 Commandments (yes, I know they originate with Moses not Jesus). There seems to be a determination to destroy it all, but these laws are necessary in a decent society. We must raise our children to celebrate the Christian festivals, even though they are coupled with the seasons. There is so little pride and respect in current society. We need to get back to our roots.

RosieandherMaw

Claremont

Yes, agreed, Church services is where they belong, with believers, as their choice. Although our local Vicar was always very clear at Midnight Service, with the 'so lovely to see so many of you here tonight- would be even nicer to see some of you sometimes on a Sunday'.

I could hardly disagree more!
Carols are part of our history and heritage as a Christian country going back many centuries. Many are indeed not even of Christian origin but may have roots in a pre-Christian society.
So they do not belong only in Church services - but on crisp Winters evenings round the houses collecting for some well deserved charity, or lifting our spirits when we hear Adeste Fideles played by a Brass Band in a shopping centre, a welcome antidote to the “music” of the tills.
You don’t have to be a card-carrying Christian to well up at little children singing Away In A Manger, or moved by Rossetti’s poignant In the Bleak Midwinter or cheered by the jolly Boar’s Head Carol.
No, these are a fundamental part of our shared heritage and should be part of every child’s musical upbringing.
To have shared that is to understand and perhaps missing out on that lies at the heart of this grave underestimation of Christmas Carols.

Another good post! 👏👏👏👏

Why do people go to Midnight Mass if they never normally go to church services? 🤔

I do know people roll out of the pubs and into the church because you can smell the alcohol - and that's not just the sacramental wine! 😀

Easter is the most important festival in the Christian calendar, anyway.

lifting our spirits when we hearAdeste Fidelesplayed by a Brass Band in a shopping centre, a welcome antidote to the “music” of the tills
That's a good point. Anyone who has heard of Westfield Stratford E20 will know that the area has a notable Muslim population. There's even a common prayer room with lots of mats on the floor. I can vouch for the fact that, at Christmas, carols blare out from all the stores and everyone hums along and smiles. Carols don't belong only in church services.

Why do people go to midnight massif they never normally go to church.

It’s all tied up with going home for Christmas I think. The need to touch base. And the need for a base and roots of some kind.
The same reason people still return to church for the markers of birth marriage and death.

The need for an anchor of some kind?

Feel a hymn coming on😬