Underachievement of white boys

M0nica

Norah

After all these posts I still doubt colour of children causes underachievement. I still do believe these underachiever boys have parents who are uninvolved, disinterested, not tending to their children.

I quite agree, but uninvolved disinterested parents are not distributed evenly across all sections of society and more of such parents are white and in the lower/lowest socio-economic groups in society, than among non-white parents in the same socio-economic groups.

Respectfully, how do we know the colour of disinterred parents.

I seem to know none.

True. I think it's an issue way beyond the remit of schools, as it goes much deeper than that.

It is difficult to have huge aspirations when there are no relatable role models, and far fewer facilities to enable any fleeting aspirations there might be.

A very few manage it but most, and that would probably be the case for most people born into generational deprivation, absorb the lack of understanding, respect and aspiration shown by other people towards them.

I would say it is poverty of aspiration as well as of money. Also, many 'working class' and financially poor people do value education. I think it's more a subcultural thing, which may be more prevalent in some communities than in others, but is not exclusively confined to social class or economic position.

Galaxy

Almost as if the issue is poverty/class.

No, poverty and the communities poor people live in.

Almost as if the issue is poverty/class.

I gave some day work to three such boys earlier this year. I needed a few days help in the garden and someone saying he was a student posted on our local Facebook regulalry looking for work to help supplement his grant.

He came the first day and chatting he said he was 21, and wasn't actually at university but the local tech (that wasn't true either)

The next day he said he was busy but had a couple of friends who would help me, which was fine, but when they appeared they seemed very young. On the second day I engaged them casually in conversation and asked their ages and when they said 16/17, I asked why they where not still in education. They both said they had dropped out at 14. The shame was that they were bright lively boys and worked well. I would have recommended them, if someone had asked.

Anyway they were due to come the next day to finish the work - but never turned up, and stopped answering any messages.

It was clear they were getting by on the odd day's work, cash in hand. They lived at home and sometimes worked with their fathers, on building sites, so their parents were clearly complicit.

It just seemed such a shame and waste of two lively boys, and they really were boys than young men.

Another one agreeing with MOnica. Sadly, in my work life I met too many white British parents who argued it was ok for their kids to wag off (truant) because they’d learned all school could teach them by 13.

Agreed, M0nica, and if colour were relevant then white boys from all socio-economic groups would underachieve, which is not the case.

Norah

After all these posts I still doubt colour of children causes underachievement. I still do believe these underachiever boys have parents who are uninvolved, disinterested, not tending to their children.

I quite agree, but uninvolved disinterested parents are not distributed evenly across all sections of society and more of such parents are white and in the lower/lowest socio-economic groups in society, than among non-white parents in the same socio-economic groups.

After all these posts I still doubt colour of children causes underachievement. I still do believe these underachiever boys have parents who are uninvolved, disinterested, not tending to their children.

My son loves intelligent women. He teaches them maths at uni. and supervises a very bright Chinese young woman for her PhD. He's a bit competitive with me 🤣 who knows the most.

He loves and respects his wife because of her stoic, intelligent loving nature. She's better at organising the whole shebang (natch) but he lovingly is the main carer for my very, very disabled granddaughter and more playful and imaginative at games with the other children. GS1 is a bit autistic, and they do guy stuff together - cook, run. Both boys and their weller sis are happy.

Don't we all just seek that crucial quality - Balance

No Jackiest you are talking about our hopes, as women, for the future, and we are strong and making it happen too. 👏

Allsorts

Can’t you just accept that all people matter to most of us, regardless of gender or race. You can’t bully people who don’t think like that as it it is their environment and education that shapes minds,

True. Their education we can not change but if we change their environment we may be able to change their minds. So if their peers make it clear that sexism is not acceptable no matter which direction it is in then maybe just maybe it may change their minds. Or a, I being optimistic.

Allsorts

Can’t you just accept that all people matter to most of us, regardless of gender or race. You can’t bully people who don’t think like that as it it is their environment and education that shapes minds,

Well said.

Can’t you just accept that all people matter to most of us, regardless of gender or race. You can’t bully people who don’t think like that as it it is their environment and education that shapes minds,

Johnny, the underlying message of your posts is that if women don’t agree with you we either fail to understand the reality or we are sticking together in female solidarity. The former is one of the reasons many women like spaces of our own - can you begin to imagine how tedious it is to have to argue with someone who refuses to accept that you are entitled to disagree?

The latter is simply untrue. As has been said, there are many people (men and women) who assume that victims of abuse have brought it on themselves, or are lying. That is how Weinstein, Epstein, Saville, Gadd, Harris and many more got away with it, and how others get away with it now. The same is true for victims of physical abuse.

Women may be more likely than men to rally round other women in need - maybe because they have seen what goes on in their own lives, maybe because they know it could happen to them. Women grow up knowing that we have to be on the alert against male violence. Plan routes home where there is good lighting and people around. Think about what you are wearing. Always have the taxi fare home in case you need to leave unaccompanied. Don’t be out late on your own. Ask Angela. Don’t be alone with a man who might ‘misconstrue’ doing so as agreeing to sex. It goes on and on.

That doesn’t mean that we don’t understand that there are men who suffer abuse too. It means that when we are helping other women we want to do it away from the men who have abused them, and have set up women-only spaces where that can happen. Even so, we are now having to fight to stop males saying they are women from accessing those spaces! It’s dystopian.

Workplace bullying is horrible and widespread. I was a union rep, and can attest to that. It is not confined to one sex or the other when it comes to victims, but I have never known it to include violence against the person. Bullying is taken very seriously regardless of who is doing it to whom, sometimes to the point where managers seek advice before following disciplinary proceedings to avoid accusations of bullying.

Or even better try discussing allegations against the 'good guys' Brendan Cox for example, see how much empathy you get then.

JohnnyMo

The other point you are missing is as a women you will instinctively get empathy and support for almost every women if you say you are being harassed or abused. A man in the same situation possibly won't.

For goodness sake, instead of moaning about it, get on and start setting them up for men!

Good god yes. Try discussing Epstein and his victims, that's always a challenge.

JohnnyMo

The other point you are missing is as a women you will instinctively get empathy and support for almost every women if you say you are being harassed or abused. A man in the same situation possibly won't.

This is simply not true.
See any previous discussion on this site for example, where allegations from women and girls are so often dismissed as being exaggerated, untrue, or being made for financial gain.

As some of us will never forget, the personal is political

The original post is from a conversation on another thread. It is just people trying to control what conversation happens on what threads.

I must be very dense as I cannot understand the original post. Its just quoting two original posters?

The other point you are missing is as a women you will instinctively get empathy and support for almost every women if you say you are being harassed or abused. A man in the same situation possibly won't.

The key point I was trying to get across to you were :
1) Due to my background I can identify with the white working boys now being failed at school.

As I pointed out, every other group which is under performing gets initiatives to address their needs. I have heard people complaining about STL don't look like me but never don't sound like me.

2) I read up on the subject and was shocked at how many male victims there are. Prior to than my perception was male victims existed but were statistically insignificant.

I simply don't understand where you are getting your ideas about me from? Where have I ever said or implied I have anything against women in general or that I excuse bad behaviour by white working class boys.

All I said I have found some women who find anyone raising the extent of male victims as somehow a threat. They hold the view of domestic violence is a one way street and can only be view through the prism of VAWG. Often by quoting dubious statistic which grossly under report male victims.

Other women are very supportive, and most of the best articles on the subject were written by women.