Goodbye Duke & Duchess of York.

On a side note, I've just read a post on Twitter about an aide to an American state governor being sentenced for 'engaging in sex' with a six-year-old - yes, a six-year-old. That's rape by anyone's standards - and I wish press reports would make that clear.

eazybee

Thank you for your considered view of my comments, Ferry23.
I agree about PA's privileged life; I have no idea if he is arrogant and boorish as claimed, and I think his association with Epstein was reprehensible; more to do with loans of money and making influential contacts than the company of young girls, possibly underlined with blackmail.
But I don't think the sex Virginia Guiffre participated in was through coercion or manipulation. She 'obliged' for two years then left when she met her husband. The lurid tale telling came later when she was facing trouble, and in need of money. I cannot remember the details of her depositions, sealed or otherwise, but she did go back on her word, and some names were pursued more intensely than others. I don't know of anyone else being pilloried by the press; it seems all about Andrew.
Perhaps it is because he stoutly maintains he has no recollection of her.

A sad life, and some of it at least due to her bad choices.
Why write this book?

Ad hominen.

Giuffre's expose is needed . Institutionalised entitlement to sex must stop.

The thread is about the ex-Duke and ex-Duchess of York.

York must be relieved!

I wish there was less interest in the one rich individual and more notice taken of Virginia Giuffre's main point, that the cause of child molestation on that scale is disdain for women and girls plus institutionalised belief in entitlement .

Written before the last post was posted.

I wouldnt begin to judge either the person, or the behaviour, of someone[and so many like her] who were brought up like she was.

How can we know how we would be, if we had been in her shoes?

Allira

LovesBach

The family who seemingly did little to help her, and the father who organised the kind of employment most fathers would be horrified to discover their daughter was involved with, are suddenly 'crying with relief' and feeling that the events 'vindicate Virginia'. Quite sickening - and possibly a case for more publications and money grabbing.

How are step-siblongs supposed to help a sister when they had a father like that? Brought up in a chaotic household?

Victim blaming yet again.

No, Allira, I am absolutely not victim blaming, and how you have found that in my post amazes me. I have said nothing about Virginia, and certainly nothing unsympathetic about her fragmented life, only about the family who were not there when it mattered but seem to be now - so who is the victim there, please?

Allira

Oh my goodness.

Still criticising and blaming the victim.
Making 'bad choices' at 14!

You sound like those whom blamed the victims of the gangs in this country.

Indeed. And many of those poor girls were also described as 'child prostitutes' although they were in their very early teens. I'm sorry, but it IS victim blaming, no matter how some people attempt to justify it.

eazybee

Thank you for your considered view of my comments, Ferry23.
I agree about PA's privileged life; I have no idea if he is arrogant and boorish as claimed, and I think his association with Epstein was reprehensible; more to do with loans of money and making influential contacts than the company of young girls, possibly underlined with blackmail.
But I don't think the sex Virginia Guiffre participated in was through coercion or manipulation. She 'obliged' for two years then left when she met her husband. The lurid tale telling came later when she was facing trouble, and in need of money. I cannot remember the details of her depositions, sealed or otherwise, but she did go back on her word, and some names were pursued more intensely than others. I don't know of anyone else being pilloried by the press; it seems all about Andrew.
Perhaps it is because he stoutly maintains he has no recollection of her.

A sad life, and some of it at least due to her bad choices.
Why write this book?

Ah, good question eazybee - "Why write this book"?

As with many "tell all" books I'm always torn between a rightfully aggrieved/abused/violated/cheated upon (insert what you will) person genuinely wanting to uncover the truth perhaps for noble, altruistic reasons.

Or somebody who can dish the dirt on the rich and famous and sees endless pounds (or dollar) signs.

I could be entirely wrong here and we'll never know, but Guiffre had a very nice settlement so didn't need the money and by opening the lid on the can of worms she did expose herself and probably went through a lot of upset and grief in the process. I would like to think that she wrote the book in an attempt to cleanse herself and achieve some kind of closure- but whatever the reason she was clearly a troubled girl and woman who had to deal with a whole lot of adversities as a child and young adult.

Oh my goodness.

Still criticising and blaming the victim.
Making 'bad choices' at 14!

You sound like those whom blamed the victims of the gangs in this country.

She could have done that without writing a book for publication Allira.

A sad life, and some of it at least due to her bad choices indeed eazybee.

A sad life, and some of it at least due to her bad choices.
Why write this book?

A therapeutic thing to do.
Her way of explaining to her children, perhaps, the truth of her life as there was, is and will be, so many cover-ups and lies in the media about what happened on that island of depravity.

I have no idea if he is arrogant and boorish as claimed

We have two friends who can confirm that from his time in the Royal Navy, even back then.

Thank you for your considered view of my comments, Ferry23.
I agree about PA's privileged life; I have no idea if he is arrogant and boorish as claimed, and I think his association with Epstein was reprehensible; more to do with loans of money and making influential contacts than the company of young girls, possibly underlined with blackmail.
But I don't think the sex Virginia Guiffre participated in was through coercion or manipulation. She 'obliged' for two years then left when she met her husband. The lurid tale telling came later when she was facing trouble, and in need of money. I cannot remember the details of her depositions, sealed or otherwise, but she did go back on her word, and some names were pursued more intensely than others. I don't know of anyone else being pilloried by the press; it seems all about Andrew.
Perhaps it is because he stoutly maintains he has no recollection of her.

A sad life, and some of it at least due to her bad choices.
Why write this book?

Indeed.

Galaxy

Men who use prostitutes are in my view one step away from rapists. As a group they generally figure very highly in domestic violence and other crimes.

If a child is under the age of consent then it is statutory rape.

I respect your view eazybee and of course, none of us will probably ever know the real truth. "Recollections may vary" (such a meaningful and diplomatic turn of phrase!).

However, your summing up of Roberts' life up until that point compared to that of a privileged, rather entitled and arrogant Prince of the Realm and his wealthy, influential (but nevertheless depraved) friend Epstein et al only indicate, to me, those who were in the driving seat and those who were pulled along as passengers.

Is sex consensual if it is undertaken under coercion or manipulation? I think not. And I do believe that most of the girls were vlunerable and needy enough to be taken in by the promises of Maxwell and Epstein, they were somewhat overawed by the trappings of wealth and eventually allowed themselves to be lured into this rather seedy underbelly of sexual abuse by powerful men.

If Prince Andrew had an otherwise unblemished past, I'd perhaps be more inclined to question all the apparent "perks" of his friendship with Epstein. But he doesn't. He's cost the Royal Family and the UK a lot in terms of credibility and respect as well as squandering public money by using his "Trade Envoy" post to finance luxury holidays, expensive golfing trips and the like.

Men who use prostitutes are in my view one step away from rapists. As a group they generally figure very highly in domestic violence and other crimes.

Allira

So you are saying that children choose that lifestyle, ie prostitution?

I can't believe I'm reading this, posted, presumably, by women!

Same, Allira. I'm horrified by that attitude.

I so agree eazybee

So you are saying that children choose that lifestyle, ie prostitution?

I can't believe I'm reading this, posted, presumably, by women!

I feel the reporting, and the condemnation, is very one-sided I agree eazybee.

Not just Andrew, who has brought total shame on the Royal Family, but I notice Tony Blair was a visitor to Epstein's mansion. This wouldn't surprise me at all as if it involved making a few million and adding another contact to his list, Blair would be there.

No it is not necessarily victim blaming but it is recognising the facts as far as they are known. Roberts, as she then was, had a troubled childhood, ran away from home, lived on the streets and was under the protection of a sex trafficker for some months, Eventually reunited with her father,( mother?) he then found her a job at Mar-a-Lago, where she was recruited by Maxwell for Epstein, and worked for him for over two years without coercion.
The headlines of this new book she has put her name to refers to her being raped by Prince Andrew, which is not so; according to her she consented to sex; according to him he did not have sex with her. She later left Epstein's employment without any recriminations.
She was made to answer questions about her involvement with Epstein only after the police, in Australia I believe, told her they were investigating the recruitment of fourteen year old girls and she had been named.
The point I am making is that she was not a seventeen naive ingenue when she entered Epstein's world. She had escaped from that milieu but willingly chose to return, and later to leave. She chose to pursue Prince Andrew, and to make as much money as she could out of her association, some of which went to her charity S.O.A.R.
Her marriage fell apart; she was estranged from her children, and I wonder at her motivation in writing this book, before committing suicide. Her half-siblings are circling and looking to capitalise on her life, apparently having insisted on re-writing parts because she was not hard enough on her ex-husband.
I feel the reporting, and the condemnation, is very one-sided.