An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

Is it possible to be 'rude' in a passive aggressive way?
Is it 'rude' to point out that there are other opinions?
It is rude, in my humble opinion, to jump to conclusions about another's belief, when in fact all they are doing is fact checking.

That phrase - that unthinking phrase - of "far right" rearing its head again. #sighs.

...and goes off thinking "Well I guess if someone has been called everything from communist to far-right across the course of their lifetime = they must be getting it about right, ie making up their own minds....rather than getting deterred by someone else's unthinking labelling of them".

Followed by thinking "...and if they've voted for about every political party there is over the course of their lifetime apart from the nationalist one (ie Plaid Cymru for my location) then again we must be getting it about right".

Labels are a cheap debating tactic.

You cannot assume that because I am pointing out that racism has changed over more recent decades from that based on biological differences to cultural differences that I do not have an opinion about the wearing of the burkha. That is a ridiculous assertion.

However, I am using the argument used by the racist about the wearing of a burkha to show that racism has indeed changed to that now based on cultural identity, rather than biological racism, although of course the two do intermingle.

Those of course using the rhetoric get very cross and deny any the suggestion that it is indeed racist, however, I think careful reading of much of the rhetoric certainly points towards a cultural racism and that it is drawn almost directly from the far right. It is sad to see.

Oreo

How very rude of you Whitewavemark2 albeit in a sort of passive aggressive way.There is no racism on this thread and the overall feeling is one that wants to free women from a restrictive garb where they can’t engage with the world, hold down a job and integrate into British life.Where the males in the household actively subjugate the females.
There may be a few women who choose to wear the burqa but we know that if they do this out of a strange form of rebellious thinking about British society then they will never go on to hold jobs or fit in.
When people from other cultures settle here then the least they can do to help themselves is to dress in a way that means they can work and live socially with others.

Quite!

I don't see it as any different to adapting one's way of dressing to any society one happens to be in - as in I adapted to a Danish way of looking whilst living there.

On the other hand - the lodgers I had to have in were quite a "United Nations" worth. Russian, Italian, Venezuelan, Turkish, Chinese, Indian....it was beginning to feel a bit "you name it" and the one that worked out best by far was the Italian one - who amused the heck out of me when she turned up as in "the full Italian" (ie elegant clothes, gold jewellery, make-up) and took about two days to look around at everyone and re-emerge British-looking (jeans/no make-up/no gold jewellery). Cue for me thinking "That didn't take you long - about two seconds flat". Food still Italian and the second she made friends with someone suitable = I'd be having an early night whilst she went out for the passegiata (ie communal evening walk). Yep...I did tell her we don't do the passegiata (shame!). But she'd adapted as fast as you please to the way of dressing - and I was just left to settle things like her having a disagreement with a British lodger of "You cooka it too long..." when she saw them cooking up dried pasta and that took two seconds to sort as I went "Britain = dried pasta = 12 minutes. Italy = fresh pasta = 4 minutes". Sorted on the spot - as they both realised.

But that was the thing - the Italian had basically taken a matter of hours to check out our way of dressing - and copied it. No-one was trying to exert any pressure on her in any direction.

Allira

^Racist tropes abound on here^

And it is concerning that some posters have no concern for he coercion and control of women by men.
It is brushed aside.

There are many women in the UK coerced and controlled by men, too many subjected to domestic violence. This is a very important subject to me as a women, but I don’t see how pointing at a very small percentage of Muslim women helps with the much bigger picture here.

Racist tropes abound on here

And it is concerning that some posters have no concern for he coercion and control of women by men.
It is brushed aside.

Correction - don’t give a hoot

All good points WWM.
And am afraid many of those shouting loudest about this really don’t have a hoot about whether a very small minority of Muslim women are in need of liberating or not. It simply serves as a racist dog whistle allowing those who never hesitate to give their views on how certain people don’t fit in or are a threat to our society to have another chance to voice ‘their concerns’.
Racist tropes abound on here but hey ho is just another day at the office

Whitewavemark2
You seem to be defending the wearing of the burka and that is fine if that is choice, if you are happy with that and with the restrictions it carries. However, there must be some women for whom it is not a choice and they are the ones about whom we should be concerned.

Coercion takes many forms and is not just restricted to that one religion but, in whatever form, it is wrong.

Far-right parties throughout Europe including the U.K. frame the burqa as a symbol of female oppression, a security risk, and a barrier to social integration and "Western values" such as gender equality and the need for facial interaction.
The issue is often politicised to exploit cultural insecurities and gain support among voters, even in countries like the U.K., where the number of women who wear a full-face veil is extremely low.

There is real irony of framing the ban as "women's liberation" while simultaneously restricting women's choices and that public safety arguments are weakened by the general acceptance of other face coverings like medical masks etc.

The far-right parties are using the burqa issue to push a specific national identity agenda against multiculturalism.

Google hey? An AI overview from multiple sources or written by a Muslim man?
How can any woman in a burka have a job? And if they are confined to the house and shopping only what kind of a restricted life is that?
These things are real, not just perceptions. If living in a Western country is what’s wanted, why not adapt your dress.
Wear modest clothing and the headscarf, there is no religious reason to wear a burqa it’s just a cultural choice.
Notice that Muslim men can wear Western clothes, which says it all doesn’t it?
Women will never live full lives or reach their full potential whilst being totally covered up in a voluminous garment without even the face showing.An outright ban on these, such as many many countries have done already will go a long way to better lives and there is nothing wrong with wanting this for everyone. I’m very surprised that any woman on here is actually championing this medieval practise for any reason whatsoever.

This from google

“The discourse surrounding the burqa in Western societies is heavily intertwined with issues of cultural racism and Islamophobia, where the garment becomes a symbol of perceived incompatibility with Western values and an excuse for the "othering" of Muslim women.
The Burqa as a Focal Point for Cultural Conflict
The burqa is often politicized and misrepresented in public debate, serving as a highly visible marker of difference that triggers anxieties about national identity, integration, and security.
Symbol of the "Other": The garment is frequently framed as alien to Western culture, portraying Muslims as unwilling to assimilate and fundamentally at odds with the values of their host countries. Political rhetoric has been shown to amplify this perception, linking the burqa to foreign aggression and a rejection of the host nation's way of life.
Perceptions of Oppression vs. Choice: A central argument in anti-burqa discourse is that it is a tool of male oppression, often imposed on women who are then depicted as submissive victims in need of Western "liberation". However, many Muslim women assert that wearing the burqa or niqab is a personal, free choice rooted in piety and identity. Critics of this "liberation" narrative argue that imposing a ban is simply another form of control that removes a woman's agency.
Incompatibility with Western Norms: Opponents of the burqa often argue it is incompatible with core Western values, such as gender equality, secularism, and the need for facial visibility for communication and trust. Proponents of this view claim the inability to see a person's face impedes social interaction and is an "uncitizenly posture".
Security Concerns: The burqa is sometimes described as a security risk, with arguments that it could be used to hide a person's identity for criminal or terrorist purposes.
Cultural Racism and its Impact
Cultural racism in this context manifests in the following ways:
Gendered Islamophobia: Muslim women who wear the burqa are disproportionately targeted with hate crimes and verbal or physical abuse. Political comments and public debates around banning the burqa are often followed by a rise in anti-Muslim incidents.
State Racism and Discrimination: Legislation banning full-face veils, as seen in countries like France, Belgium, and Denmark, is described by many as a form of state racism. Such bans can lead to further isolation, essentially placing some women under "house arrest" as they are unable or unwilling to go out in public without their chosen covering.
Perpetuating Stereotypes: The intense focus on the burqa as a problem object leads to the perpetuation of Orientalist and dualistic ideologies that position "the West" as developed and rational, and the "Orient" (including Islamic practices) as backward and barbaric.
Ultimately, the debate over the burqa often marginalizes the actual voices of the women who wear it, while serving as a contentious arena for broader cultural and racial anxieties within Western societies”

.

When people from other cultures settle here then the least they can do to help themselves is to dress in a way that means they can work and live socially with others.
Just as we are expected to dress modestly and cover our hair in some countries out of respect for their religion or culture.

Some women wear a Hijab or Dupatta, but for women to be coerced by men into wearing a Burka or even a niqab speaks of oppression and we should be supporting those women.

How very rude of you Whitewavemark2 albeit in a sort of passive aggressive way.There is no racism on this thread and the overall feeling is one that wants to free women from a restrictive garb where they can’t engage with the world, hold down a job and integrate into British life.Where the males in the household actively subjugate the females.
There may be a few women who choose to wear the burqa but we know that if they do this out of a strange form of rebellious thinking about British society then they will never go on to hold jobs or fit in.
When people from other cultures settle here then the least they can do to help themselves is to dress in a way that means they can work and live socially with others.

Oh I forgot to reference.

Extract from paper by Lars Cornelissen MMU.

Interestingly the academic research on racism, indicates that it has never gone away, but has simply changed its shape over the past recent decade or so. The rhetoric has changed from that based on colour to that based on immigration status and culture.

“ Various forms of racism persist. Today, cultural racism is the most widespread and politically consequential kind. Derogatory and stereotyped views on cultural differences and national identity are now an everyday feature of public discourse, especially in debates over immigration”

“ Similarly, the notion that racism was already dealt with “decades ago”, in Starmer’s words, ignores the fact that racism never went away. It also downplays the extent to which the harm of past racism lives on in the present in structural issues like wealth and income gaps, uneven access to work or housing, unequal health outcomes, and police profiling.

To tackle racism, a widening of focus is needed. Our conception of racism cannot be restricted to instances of individual prejudice but must also include these structural effects.

At the structural level, racism causes certain individuals or communities to be more vulnerable to violence, exclusion, marginalisation, poverty, and other harmful outcomes on the basis of their membership of a particular racial, cultural, or religious group. Rhetoric that intensifies this vulnerability feeds racism, even when it is not expressed in the language of “race” or when there is no prejudicial intent.

So long as these structural factors are not taken into consideration, more subtle forms of racism will continue to hide in plain sight and exert a corrosive influence on the health and wellbeing of those it targets”

It is alive and well on GN

Quercus

The burqa is, quite simply, a visible symbol of the oppression of women.
I wish the solution were as easy as banning it.

Other countries find it easy enough.

It would be a good start Quercus

The burqa is, quite simply, a visible symbol of the oppression of women.
I wish the solution were as easy as banning it.

Iam64

We are a tolerant and inclusive society. Can yiu help me understand by what you mean by “we need to be careful “?
As seen on this thread, the majority are uneasy, or definitely opposed, to the wearing of the burka, I posted earlier that the burka and other forms of traditional dress are much more often worn in my town than thirty years ago. It’s possible my Muslim neighbours of Pakistani heritage were more ancpxiiud about racist comments than they are now,

A country can be too tolerant and inclusive and end up being a doormat for other cultures to walk all over.
France has the right idea by banning face coverings which also has the effect of preventing male head of households there from the subjugation of women in those houses.

Eloethan

I think women should wear what they want to wear - whether it be a burqa or something much more revealing.

I think continual criticism of ethnic dress will actually have the reverse effect. People will naturally feel targeted and less inclined to mingle with people outside their own culture, or to question or adapt any of their practices.

I tend to agree with Franbern that, in my experience of living in London, it is often the younger women who have reverted to wearing the burqa. It is a type of rebellion against the demonisation of their culture. When I see them chatting happily together on the tube, I don't get the impression that they are docile, oppressed individuals.

I don’t agree at all ( tho that’s fine)
Would we feel happy if men wore anything they wanted when out and about? Hamas style face coverings?

Iam64

We are a tolerant and inclusive society. Can yiu help me understand by what you mean by “we need to be careful “?
As seen on this thread, the majority are uneasy, or definitely opposed, to the wearing of the burka, I posted earlier that the burka and other forms of traditional dress are much more often worn in my town than thirty years ago. It’s possible my Muslim neighbours of Pakistani heritage were more ancpxiiud about racist comments than they are now,

Well they’re going about it the wrong way then, as there will be more not less racist comments if they breeze around town in a burqa.

Iam64

*it must be incredibly difficult for women who are born into that sort of family - but are normal themselves ….. “

Where to start with this?….

I took it as the woman in question wanted to integrate into British society by not wanting to wear an outdated form of dress from an Asian country and wasn’t of the same mindset of her cruel murderous family.

The feminist perspective is relevant when considering the burka imo. So are the increasing anti Muslim views being expressed by many of white British heritage.

I agree with Eloethan’s observation that it’s younger women embracing the burka as a sign of solidarity with their faith. Same goes for the head scarves. We see many students with the same dress as non Muslim students but wearing a head covering.

My earlier spaghetti word should have read that my Muslim Pakistani neighbours were less likely to wear traditional dress than the are now because they were more anxious about racism than they are now

It is being discussed from a feminist perspective in many places and they of course would have a broader analysis than that.