An interesting slant on the wearing of a burqa.

I often wonder why it is only celbritiees, who turn up to award ceremonies and first nights, dressed in as near to next to nothing as you can get who go on about being empowering etc etc.

If that was true, why is it that ordinary young women, may wear very short skirts, very high heels and less often really low tops, but do not feel that they need to walk around more than half naked to be empowered.

My granddaughter is studying to work in the music industry Fallingstar and we've long had discussions about fully clothed male artists surrounded by scantily clad girl dancers, not from the perspective of the morality of the girls but the disparity and misogyny in the music industry making the demands.

FWIW I think it's changing, probably slowly, with so many more successful female artists today and Beyonce, Rihanna, Dua Lipa, Adele, Taylor Swift etc certainly have complete control of their appearance.

It's an interesting facet of the modesty debate but still completely about the autonomy of choice being in women's hands in my opinion.

Excuse me if I tread on any toes am new to this and only read through a few comments.
Am just wondering if there are very much two ends to this spectrum with regard to men dictating what women wear. I mean do the likes of Beyoncé and Rihanna writhe around on stage dressed in next to nothing because they are strong women and that is their choice or are they bowing to what the music industry mainly run by men has promoted as the way to become successful as a female artist?
Equally are women who cover up doing it because it is their choice or because men prefer them to dress that way when out in public?
Is an interesting subject but either way I think it says more about ‘men’ from all backgrounds and not just those who insist upon the wearing of the burka.

Good post about misogyny running deep too!

Yes, that's true Caleo now that you point it out, some women do label other women sluts.
Kind of like the silent admonishment of visually modest dress wearers to us non-modest (or is that immodest) women.

My virtue is my own, private concern, it's got bugger all to do with anyone else.

Misogyny is very deep -rooted in our culture, and in most cultures back into pre-history. Our present times are unprecedented when women are about to break through the culture barrier .

Nannee49

There's only men bothered about virginity Caleo as far as I'm aware!

Oh, I don't know about that Nannee! Women label other women sluts. Then there is the myth that the Blessed Virgin was the only woman capable of producing Christ.

There's only men bothered about virginity Caleo as far as I'm aware!

I agree wholeheartedly Rosie51.

The attempts to normalise the wearing of modest dress, the sanctimonious preaching to try and persuade that if you're anti coverage you're a nasty bigot rather than a lover of freedom where all are considered equal is an insiduous "othering" straight out of the Machiaevellian handbook.

Nannee49

There is a post doing the rounds - sorry not got the tech to share - promoting World Hijab day showing a pic of a nun on one side and a young woman in a hijab on the other with the caption over the nun saying "if this doesn't bother you" then over the hijabed woman "and this does"...."it's not your faith, it's your bigotry...just saying"

Bigotry? How about sheer bloody misogyny right there in both pics!

It's only men who care about women's modesty, I've yet to meet a woman who gives a stuff about another woman's chastity.

There is a certain mystique around virginity. I guess it originates with the idea that another man's sperm affects the purity of one's own impregation.

foxie48

Galaxy

Absolutely, it is a value judgement, when we don't use value judgements the first people to suffer tend to be the most vulnerable in our society.

But we don't call the most vulnerable people in our society "inferior" or is that how some people think? I certainly don't!

I would hope nobody would consider vulnerable people inferior. Using inferior to mean lower quality applies to the attitudes within a culture. The Taliban culture that exists in Afghanistan is appalling in the way it treats females. They are the most vulnerable in that culture and are definitely treated as inferior beings to be kept subdued and voiceless. For that reason I do not consider their culture equal to the (far from perfect cultures) that exist in the UK.

There is a post doing the rounds - sorry not got the tech to share - promoting World Hijab day showing a pic of a nun on one side and a young woman in a hijab on the other with the caption over the nun saying "if this doesn't bother you" then over the hijabed woman "and this does"...."it's not your faith, it's your bigotry...just saying"

Bigotry? How about sheer bloody misogyny right there in both pics!

It's only men who care about women's modesty, I've yet to meet a woman who gives a stuff about another woman's chastity.

Galaxy

Absolutely, it is a value judgement, when we don't use value judgements the first people to suffer tend to be the most vulnerable in our society.

But we don't call the most vulnerable people in our society "inferior" or is that how some people think? I certainly don't!

Absolutely, it is a value judgement, when we don't use value judgements the first people to suffer tend to be the most vulnerable in our society.

It's remarkable that men do not wear burqas or similar . Without exception, extreme modesty is forced upon women by men. Often the women concerned are compliant.

The burqa , besides being outstandingly modest, is also impractical for hard work in field or factory and therefor signals that the woman's family is so affluent their women don/t have to do manual work.

Affluent families traditionally displayed their women as ornamental possessions, not persons of the same status as men. E.g. men did not wear stiletto heels.

Whoops sorry I should have said Rosie !

The advantage of living in a society like the UK is we can hold different opinions and we can express them provided we stay within the law. Tbh I don't think anyone is trying to silence you,Monica but I don't like the expression "inferior" either, it's a value judgement made from a hegemonic position. You can make it but I don't have like it. Vive la difference! GN would be very boring if it was just an echo chamber.
IMO most of the major changes in cultural norms, especially those affecting women, have come about by economic conditions driving political action. We don't have to go back in our own history to see aspects of our behaviour that is viewed now as totally appalling. Those countries in Africa that still allow Fmg eg Somalia, Mali, Sierra Leone are poverty stricken and have suffered with wars and famines. I don't think that's unrelated.

Rosi51 you exactly illustrate my point.

M0nica

Grantanow

Maybe some cultures are inferior to others.

Good heavens! Different yes, but inferior, it alldepends which side yoy are looking from

Any culture that endorses FGM, or values a female testimony as worth half a male testimony, or commands women to be subservient to a male, or silences the female voice......yes I'm happy to designate it as an inferior culture. I don't care the colour, religion or sex of the offender, in my opinion they're all wrong and I won't be silenced.

Grantanow

Maybe some cultures are inferior to others.

Good heavens! Different yes, but inferior, it alldepends which side yoy are looking from

Maybe some cultures are inferior to others.

eazybee

Dear me, MOnica, how rude.

You think this is not about power politics?

yes, of course it is about power politics, but the thread is about the burqa, not the complicated power politics of 16th century England.

To be precise Henry VIII was short of money. The monastries were growing rich and a challenge to the king because when richpeople and landowners died they would leave land and possessions to the church, which could hold them in perpetuity.

As a result, more and more of the land in the country was falling into the hands of the church, which was becoming so rich that it could challenge the kings authority.

Money and the contest for pwer was the core raiso d'etre for the repression of the monasteries, but needed polpuar support. ordinary people had very little interest in power politics between King and Church, so the King employed some public relataions advisors who recommended that he sell his actions to the public as being rich monks and monasteries living high on the ho while the poor starved. This was, of course, not accurate as many monasteries and nunneries were both small and poor, but also the monasteries and nunneries provided thw welfare state of the period. They ran hospitals, fed the poor, provided overnight shelter, all things which disappeared with the monsteries.

By the end of Henry VIIIs life destitute people were walking the roads and becoming a threat to civil order because they no longer had the support of the religious houses and you had the first of the Poor Law acts to try to contain the problem and force communities to support their own poor.

Now what all this ahs got to do with wearing the burqa I do not know, but you asked.

Dear me, MOnica, how rude.

You think this is not about power politics?

I think head coverings are fine, not many would have a problem with that. The issue is the full facial masks with slits for the eyes and sometimes even crisscross pieces over the eyes. Alien to me and quite threatening because there could be anyone behind the masks, male or female. The wearers of these outfits also seem to be quite hostile by their body language . I wouldn’t wander round their countries in shorts and T shirt, it would be rude so why are they being rude to us ?

Sometimes some Hindu women wear short blouses under their saris, with the midriff slightly exposed, including older women.