Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

SueDonim

All the way through the trans debate, which must be ten years or now, I’ve been baffled as to why those of us who were born female had to be the problem-solvers for another group’s perceived issues.

I suppose it's a bit of a pet-peeve for me. I discussed it once some time ago - as you point out, this has been going on for years - with my now late ex-partner. I asked him if he thought men were inherently 'lazy' emotionally and intellectually. I can't remember his exact words, but he said something to the effect that he didn't think men were inherently lazy, rather that women had had no choices really because they suffered the consequences if they didn't anticipate or manage, or even manipulate, men's behaviour and emotions. Which he thought divested them of their responsibility to behave like civilised human beings.

But, as Galaxy pointed out - this particular aspect of the issue isn't just about the possible/perceived threat of men in women's spaces - it's also to do with dignity and sensitivity. Women, and young girls, must have the right to dress or undress/use facilities etc without the presence of men.
The other day, I had to have an ultrasound of my lower leg. I'd dressed in jeans and a long tunic top but needed to remove the jeans. Even though I had on a very long top which virtually came down to my knees, the male sonographer motioned with his hand towards a screen where I could remove my trousers - even though he wouldn't have seen anything as I pulled them down, he was sensitive to the mere act of undressing. I appreciated that gesture.

Dickens wrote ^As I said earlier, we have managed their behaviour, their emotions, their wants and needs, since time immemorial probably. It is not up to us to 'budge over' yet again - they have to change. It's not impossible, there are millions of men who have managed without too much fuss or effort to be decent human beings.
It is not our problem, the ball is in their court.^

Absolutely this. All the way through the trans debate, which must be ten years or now, I’ve been baffled as to why those of us who were born female had to be the problem-solvers for another group’s perceived issues.

But they don't when they involve medical professionals. I can't demand that someone removes my legs because I 'feel' disabled. I don't think surgery will stop because people like me have concerns, I think it will eventually be stopped in the same way lobotomies were because society as a whole realises it is not appropriate treatment.

I think there are very definitely ethical issues when it comes to children getting puberty blockers etc; but adults have, IMO, the right to make decisions of their own.

Maybe it will be that the NHS will not fund the surgery - that is the sort of thing that has to be considered - but I wouldn't like to see the operations disallowed altogether.

Interesting point, Galaxy.
I wonder, do the procedures happen through the NHS or private facilities?
Yes, there could/should be an ethical dimension.

It is however up to people to practice medicine that does no harm.
We in terms of medical procedures decide what is appropriate all the time.
It is why we don't give slimming drugs to those with anorexia or carry out lobotomies.
It is in my view just another version of these 'special' group of men are allowed in.

Very eloquent, Dickens.

Galaxy

I also don't think we should make an operation which has life long implications as a criteria for access to spaces. I am of the view that peoplewill look back in horror at these medical interventions.

Maybe so, but the very few men who have surgical transitions are less likely to cause problems for women. That is as far as outsiders can go, IMO - it's not for us to tell others what to do with their bodies. In any case, as there is virtually no way to police it, it is unlikely that surgical transition will ever become a passport to anything.

I also don't think we should make an operation which has life long implications as a criteria for access to spaces. I am of the view that peoplewill look back in horror at these medical interventions.

Good post Dickens.

I agree where men get changed, etc isn't my problem, I am not their mum. Again, the deep ingrained sexism of the movement tries to put the onus on women to solve mens problems.
I also don't care what men have done to their bodies, they are not welcome in women's spaces. It isn't just about risk, ( the risk of violence remains whether a man has a penis or not) it is also about privacy and dignity, we can't consent for the women for whom getting undressed in front of a man would be terrifying.

I do agree with the points you've made Dickens.

There are men who are gentle souls, who treat women with the respect that should be accorded to human beings regardless of their sex; and I'm sure there are transwomen among them.
I do feel a genuine sympathy for them because, as others have said, they simply want to live their lives without fuss and hoo-ha, and of course the recent ruling will make life difficult for them. I don't know what their perception of womanhood actually is, but whatever it is that propels them to identify as one - obviously, they would probably feel more comfortable in a woman's changing room, toilets, etc. Personally, if I knew such an individual, I would be happy to share the space with them, as I was happy to share the intimate proximity with the transwoman who was the leader of the interest group that I once belonged to - but that's because I knew this person, this transwoman who was one of the 'gentle souls' mentioned.
... and that's the issue. We don't know the transwoman who prefers/demands/insists on using the toilet/changing room we've just entered...
Because the TW activists have been so aggressive, so demanding - with threats of violence if we don't concur - we are now in the position where we now regard all transwomen as possible predators.
And the answer is not to tell women that "you most likely wouldn't even know he was a transwoman" or "most transwomen are not a threat", etc, etc - because that is putting the onus, as usual, on women.
The problem is men, their aggression, their threatening and sometimes predatory behaviour, whether they be transwomen or straight men. It is they who have to change. As I said earlier, we have managed their behaviour, their emotions, their wants and needs, since time immemorial probably. It is not up to us to 'budge over' yet again - they have to change. It's not impossible, there are millions of men who have managed without too much fuss or effort to be decent human beings.
It is not our problem, the ball is in their court.

ViceVersa

Even the removal of male 'bits' does not turn a biological male into a woman - in the same way that castrating a male dog does not turn it into a bitch.

You’re right, of course, and I never suggested it did turn male into female and castration is not what I suggested.

I also said , Rules about access to female sports, spaces etc. should still apply with or without bits.

However, being obliged to be not just castrated, but all male parts removed before being able to claim you’re a woman might deter some of the frock toting, paper waving males who say they feel like a woman in their head from claiming to be women.

Especially if the punishment of immediate removal of parts could follow any identification of TW in female spaces etc.

TW claiming spaces in women’s prisons?
No but how many demands for that would there be if appendage removal was an essential prerequisite for such placement?

I agree with Doodledog’s assessment that she
can see that the ID problem would be all but insurmountable. A lot of facilities are not staffed - who would look at the ID cards? The likelihood is that transwomen would use the facilities whether they had a card or not, and hope there was nobody checking. There would still be intact males in female spaces.
That’s true, possibly because
for TW, once they’ve lied to themselves, they probably find lying to others easier the more they do it.

Isn't the most telling part of all these discussions that they always centre on transwomen, never transmen? (The exception being Mollygo's post, and I concur at the heartbreak of all those healthy breasts cut off) All those politicians proudly proclaiming that women can have a penis, without feeling the need to proclaim that men can have a vulva. If anything demonstrates that the focus is men and their wants, needs, demands, then that is it.

The thing is though - if men did make room for women in their facilities, a lot of transwomen wouldn't be happy. Many believe they are indistinguishable from women, and some (autogynephiles) get a sexual thrill from being thought female. Then there are the ones who just want to dominate women.

Using the Gents' is not going to be acceptable to those groups, and it seems that they are the ones who have added to the 'tiny minority' who have 'always been amongst us', living anonymously. Most women were probably ok with them - the 'Hayley from Coronation Street' ones - as they were harmless and just wanted to fit in and get on with their lives. It's the India Willoughby ones that are the problem - the ones that refuse to use the unisex loos as (in India's words) 'I AM a woman', or the Eddie Izzards who frighten young teens in the Ladies, and/or have the Ladies' emptied so he could use the loo, escorted by theatre employees. They are the problem, and they and their ilk will not be mollified by men allowing them into the male spaces where they belong.

I do agree where a 3rd space isn't possible, that men should have the onus put on them as to accommodating transwomen. I can't help wondering why that didn't seem to be considered once all the burden was placed on women. Of course as mentioned up thread transwomen have been with us existing quietly before it was all cranked up and the onus was on women to fight for matters that should never have been challenged. Budge up men! after all urinals specifically are designed for the male anatomy, probably just as easy to avail theirselves of those wearing a dress.

I always liked Michelle Dewberry's take on the matter before the crucial ruling. On walking into a Virgin Active Women's changing room to find a transwoman in there she went straight to the front desk to state "why is there a man in the Women's?" Their mealy mouthed explanation of "we strive to be inclusive" inclusive for whom, not for women. She resigned her membership forthwith. They did of course have to change their policy on that post ruling.

ViceVersa

Even the removal of male 'bits' does not turn a biological male into a woman - in the same way that castrating a male dog does not turn it into a bitch.

I agree - it doesn't. But I would concede that someone who has had his sex organs removed and was taking female hormones is probably not a threat to women, and make an exception for fully surgically transitioned men. I am not trying to be unkind to transwomen - I just want to protect women's rights to privacy and dignity and keep women and girls safe from attack.

But.

I can see that the ID problem would be all but insurmountable. A lot of facilities are not staffed - who would look at the ID cards? The likelihood is that transwomen would use the facilities whether they had a card or not, and hope there was nobody checking. There would still be intact males in female spaces. We used to hear pretty constantly about 'what is in their trousers' and be asked how we would police a ban on male interlopers. Well, the tide has turned on that - it's fair to say that it is no longer women's responsibility to come up with a solution to that - it's a blanket ban. If any supporters of trans women's right to be in women's spaces has a solution I'd be interested to hear it though.

Dickens

Mollygo

Well, presumably Rose felt uncomfortable changing in the "Mens”
But he didn’t care whether he made women uncomfortable by changing in the “women’s”.
Nice for a man to be able to blame the authority, for making women feel uncomfortable, instead of his own actions.

Well, presumably Rose felt uncomfortable changing in the "Mens”

The problem though is still men. If other men make Rose feel uncomfortable, then they need to be the ones having pressure put on them to accept and accommodate Rose.

The problem though is still men. If other men make Rose feel uncomfortable, then they need to be the ones having pressure put on them to accept and accommodate Rose.

Simple, isn't it!

Even the removal of male 'bits' does not turn a biological male into a woman - in the same way that castrating a male dog does not turn it into a bitch.

Here’s a thought that some will obviously find as offensive as I find some TW behaviour.

First, Men who have been chopped are still men, no matter how they dress, act or feel in their head.

Rules about access to female sports, spaces etc. should still apply with or without bits.

But ANY claims by TW that they have changed sex, or gender, should first of all be verified by proof of the removal of their male appendages.

Or removal of the same appendages before any court case can be brought. That would certainly have put a stop to Rose’s behaviour.

I’m sickened by seeing posts with girls with scars across their chests because they believe the lie that it will make them men. It won’t! But they’ve put more effort into their delusion than donning a frock or waving a bit of paper.

How about all TW claimants abusing their own bodies before they abuse the minds or bodies of females.
I don’t doubt this will be reported. I may even be banned, but I feel in my head that it needs suggesting.

I felt really sorry for the Scottish nurse who was put through hell for asking a doctor, who was still fully male, but was supposedly transgendering, to leave the female changing room.

Maremia

Re-reading some of this Thread, the phrase
'demanding wonen make way for them' is the one that resonates.

Yes.
One way and another, women have been expected to manage men's emotions and needs, either through fear, or societal conditioning.
Perhaps it's time for men to learn to "be kind" so that transwomen are not threatened by them? Then the onus is on them rather than on women.

Magenta and other women who do not respect the feelings of other women, I do object to your attitude that has bought us here. Rose as he wants to be, is still a he, with facial hair, a big muscular body, with his male parts in tight black hokey trunks, he looks like a man in a dress, that's why tge verdict was reached I wouldn't want him treating me, wouldn't want to get undressed in front of him and as for asking that nurse three times when she was going to undress, creepy, I have no objection to male nurses, gay nurses, but people like him are a threat to women.

Every single time I discuss this issue online my phone autocorrects women to wonen.