Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

Apologies doodledog it wasn’t you using the phrase “men pretending to be women”, it was another poster.

That was me. I try not to lie.

We cross-posted, Cossy.

I'm not really able to agree to disagree though, or not if that means not responding to posts that suggest things that are contrary to women's rights. These matters are very important to women.

I respect the fact that there are different views on this matter, but am not happy to sit on my hands when my words are twisted, or when it is implied that I am being discriminatory.

Do you really think that all staff in a hospital are known to all others? There are several shifts, numerous departments and categories of staff, some of whom will have been there for years and others weeks. Maybe in a cottage hospital people will know most of their colleagues by sight, but it is highly unlikely that this will be the case in a General Hospital. And anyway, we need laws and regulations here, so things are not left open to interpretation. We can't have a situation where rules are made depending on how likely it is that staff will know one another.

I'm really not following your logic. You say that I am right that 'men' (your speech marks) shouldn't enter women's spaces, but that Rose was wearing women's clothes, as though that makes a difference. Rose is a man, who is trying to father a child. In what sense do you see Rose a woman? Her clothing? I don't become a man when I wear jeans.

Can you imagine the outcry if Rose were given a cupboard to dress in? If Rose had any care for the sex Rose claims to belong to, Rose would not have let this get to the point that it has. As I see it, there is very clearly power play going on - does that not seem obvious to you? In Rose's position I would travel to work in my scrubs, so I didn't need to change on the premises, or find another way around forcing myself on people who so badly wanted me to change elsewhere that they were prepared to go to court. That would be much more likely to make Rose seem less of a threat to the sex she would like to belong to, surely?

On a purely practical level, it does surprise me if there are still hospitals that have changing rooms which serve multiple departments, I’ve worked in lots of different hospitals in my career, and all of them lost their communal changing facilities years ago, because they were large spaces, so prime expansion accommodation for clinical services. Most changing is now at ward or department level, where space is very compromised.

Another thing we have to challenge is the conflation of trans with gay.

And the using of examples of gay experiences in discussing trans issues. They are not valid.

The LGBT+ was always a conflation.

No figures re crimes, particularly crimes of a sexual or violent nature are valid so there is no point referring to them.
Not until the misrecording of male crimes as female is rectified.

Galaxy

So I worked for an organisation were a man filmed women without their knowledge, on the toilet, strangely enough his ID badge, the fact that people knew him or his role in the organisation didn't stop him doing that.

Point taken, but a bit off point if he wasn’t “Trans”, when I worked in a busy jobcentre we did actually challenge anyone trying to enter the building at the staff entrance even with a valid ID, if we did not know them, but of course that wouldn’t have worked in your example Galaxy as this man worked in your organisation. What a strange and disgusting thing to do and I wonder how people didn’t notice that? Really gives me the chills.

Lathyrus3

Another thing we have to challenge is the conflation of trans with gay.

And the using of examples of gay experiences in discussing trans issues. They are not valid.

The LGBT+ was always a conflation.

No figures re crimes, particularly crimes of a sexual or violent nature are valid so there is no point referring to them.
Not until the misrecording of male crimes as female is rectified.

They are completely valid when talking about “discrimination” which always rears its head whenever trans are discussed.

Given that they form under 1% of our current population it’s quite likely that it is not them committing sexual and violent crimes against women.

The LGBT+ was always a conflation.

In your opinion, in my opinion it’s valid and unless you’re part of this community, or have a close friend or family member who is, whilst you have the right to air your “views”, it doesn’t make you right.

Yes, people talk about three spaces. Again why not?
New buildings are going up all the time. Start making the accommodation available now.

Galaxy

That was me. I try not to lie.

You are correct that trans women are, almost exclusively, biologically men, born as male, registered as male.

Your “truth” that trans women are “men pretending to be women” isn’t a phrase with which I agree.

I will respectfully agree to disagree.

What Galaxy described, about filming in toilets, appears to be sadly, very common in South Korea.
Not relevant to this Thread, but thought I would mention it in passing.

Sorry to interrupt the flow again, but, in the past, men 'pretending' to be women, i.e. dressing up, cross dressing, were not called trans-sexual. The name was 'transvestite'
Is that term out of date now?

He placed cameras in the toilet, it isn't unheard of.
I would say in terms of conflation of lgb and trans that gender ideology is one of the most homophobic movemnts I have ever seen.

I believe there has been a schism between LGB and LGBTQ. Hardly surprising given some of the misogynistic behaviour and articles, particularly those aimed at lesbians who want to maintain women only events. Their critics often supported by certain journalists who write for the Guardian, a publication that doesn't support women who rail against their stance on this matter. Hadley Freeman who now writes for The Sunday Times has often stated how she and other colleagues were thrown under the bus for daring to critise The Guardian's accepted group think on the debacle.

Yes it is interesting what is happening, I do wonder if lgb alliance will emerge as the new charity and stonewall with its financial woes will disappear.

Maremia

Sorry to interrupt the flow again, but, in the past, men 'pretending' to be women, i.e. dressing up, cross dressing, were not called trans-sexual. The name was 'transvestite'
Is that term out of date now?

According to Mr Google,

“ The key difference is that transvestite (now often called cross-dresser) refers to wearing clothes of a different gender, often for expression or pleasure, without necessarily identifying as that gender, while transsexual (an older term for transgender) describes someone whose internal gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth, often leading to a desire for physical transition. Transvestites cross-dress; transgender/transsexual people are the gender they identify with, and clothing is just one aspect of living as their true gender.”

Again even the explanations are mired in sexism.

I've just read in the DM online, apologies, for a source that sometimes skew the truth, most unacceptable, a bit like that other large, but conversely well respected news outlet the BBC who have known to do the same, but for the right reasons, of course. Anyway moving on, some may remember the case of the nurse who was suspended for calling a transgender paedophile "Mr" who incidentally racially abused her, never mind, seems that's not as important as her not using the convicted paedophile's preferred pronouns.

Jennifer Melle who has already been disciplined by St Hellier Hospital in Carshalton, Surrey for her offence could now be sacked for speaking out about her ordeal. Having also been referred to the Nursing and Midwifery Council as a potential risk for allegedly breaching its conduct policy, which states that nurses should not express the truth their beliefs to people in an inappropriate way. This senior nurse of 12 years experience, had the indignity of being escorted from the premises during her shift and immediately suspended for speaking out about her treatment. She told the Mail on Sunday "I am devastated to have been suspended for whistle blowing, despite being the one placed at risk, I am the one being punished" She now faces a disciplinary hearing with her employer where she will be informed of the action against her which could mean she loses her job.

I totally get your points doodledog, and I don’t mean don’t comment if you feel my comments or statements are wrong or I misquote or misunderstand you.

When talking specifically about the “Rose” case I meant she was dressed as a woman and lived as a woman (though I find the thought that suddenly now Rose wants to impregnate their partner, imo, this would totally invalidate their claim to being transgender), so what I’m clumsily trying to say is, in her case if a male dressed as a conventional male tried to enter that particular room I would hope they’d be stopped and challenged.

Yes, hospitals are huge, however specific wards etc do tend to have the same staff working together so new person might stand out.

What does "lived as a woman" mean?

TerriBull

I've just read in the DM online, apologies, for a source that sometimes skew the truth, most unacceptable, a bit like that other large, but conversely well respected news outlet the BBC who have known to do the same, but for the right reasons, of course. Anyway moving on, some may remember the case of the nurse who was suspended for calling a transgender paedophile "Mr" who incidentally racially abused her, never mind, seems that's not as important as her not using the convicted paedophile's preferred pronouns.

Jennifer Melle who has already been disciplined by St Hellier Hospital in Carshalton, Surrey for her offence could now be sacked for speaking out about her ordeal. Having also been referred to the Nursing and Midwifery Council as a potential risk for allegedly breaching its conduct policy, which states that nurses should not express the truth their beliefs to people in an inappropriate way. This senior nurse of 12 years experience, had the indignity of being escorted from the premises during her shift and immediately suspended for speaking out about her treatment. She told the Mail on Sunday "I am devastated to have been suspended for whistle blowing, despite being the one placed at risk, I am the one being punished" She now faces a disciplinary hearing with her employer where she will be informed of the action against her which could mean she loses her job.

Personally, I find this case appalling and dare I say ludicrous.

This nurse should be immediately reinstated and this (in my opinion) rubbish removed from her HR record.

Pronouns are a minefield, I try and use what I feel are correct, but would never ever expect any professional, particularly in the above circumstances, to be penalised for using a pronoun the recipient finds offensive.

Ilovecheese

What does "lived as a woman" mean?

It means “she” lived her life as if she was female? I’m not sure what you mean, Rose dressed as a woman, had a woman’s name, in their head they were female?

We can debate this until we are all blue in the face, the Supreme Court of the land ruled that a biological man must use male onlyfacilities , a biological woman must use female only spaces we cannot change biology.

Cossy You are correct that trans women are, almost exclusively, biologically men, born as male, registered as male.

almost exclusively?? A female cannot be a transwoman as she is a woman. Who other than males can be transwomen? There is no third or more sex?

I don't get the "living as a woman" unless you are prepared to go back to 50s stereotype women. I'm sure the women on this forum all live our lives, which means we live as women, but I'm also sure some of us never wear a dress or makeup. Are we failing to 'live as women" ?
Bridie22 you are absolutely correct about the Supreme Court clarifying what the law has always been. Too many of our institutions have been captured by the ideology, trained by Stonewall, and are reluctant to in any way enforce it.