Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

Magenta8

I am going to make myself very unpopular with when say what I think.

My understanding is that Rose had been using the women's changing room since 2019 and it was only in 2023 that a small group of nurses decided that it was an offence to their dignity as women to have to share a changing room with a trans male.

Rose strongly denies that she looked at the women in a creepy way. Incidentally, do they mind sharing a changing room with lesbians who might look at them while they change?

I find many examples of the way trans men trample on women's rights very offensive, for instance wishing to compete against women in sports.

On the face of it I find it hard to summon up a great deal of sympathy for the Victorian sensitivities of these snowflake nurses.

.Wouldn't call the nurses snowflakes personally - it takes guts to stand up for a principle, & it wasn't a foregone conclusion they would win the case.

However it's sad that some on here are spreading aspersions against Rose's behaviour, the tribunal was at pains to state that she had done nothing wrong & hadn't looked at anyone in a creepy way. She probably did all she could to violate their privacy as little as possible.

I think those statements were born out of a desire to feel as though they had a strong case, & weren't transphobic, & some of the nurses exaggerated by "remembering" feeling looked at when in fact there was no basis for that.

We are in a much better position than we were 2 years ago with this issue. This result only reinforces it. But I wish people wouldn't repeat some of the allegations that came up in the hearing & were found to be untrue, I find that either misguided or cruel.

I like to use 'observed' at birth, because that's exactly what happens. Given that babies can be sexed while in utero, and most parents these days opt to know the sex of their unborn child, there is absolutely no 'assigning' to be done.

Cossy

Ilovecheese

What does "lived as a woman" mean?

It means “she” lived her life as if she was female? I’m not sure what you mean, Rose dressed as a woman, had a woman’s name, in their head they were female?

But at the same time tried to get their partner pregnant?

I'm not sure that living as a female includes that criterion.

TerriBull

I've just read in the DM online, apologies, for a source that sometimes skew the truth, most unacceptable, a bit like that other large, but conversely well respected news outlet the BBC who have known to do the same, but for the right reasons, of course. Anyway moving on, some may remember the case of the nurse who was suspended for calling a transgender paedophile "Mr" who incidentally racially abused her, never mind, seems that's not as important as her not using the convicted paedophile's preferred pronouns.

Jennifer Melle who has already been disciplined by St Hellier Hospital in Carshalton, Surrey for her offence could now be sacked for speaking out about her ordeal. Having also been referred to the Nursing and Midwifery Council as a potential risk for allegedly breaching its conduct policy, which states that nurses should not express the truth their beliefs to people in an inappropriate way. This senior nurse of 12 years experience, had the indignity of being escorted from the premises during her shift and immediately suspended for speaking out about her treatment. She told the Mail on Sunday "I am devastated to have been suspended for whistle blowing, despite being the one placed at risk, I am the one being punished" She now faces a disciplinary hearing with her employer where she will be informed of the action against her which could mean she loses her job.

Why are people not out protesting in the streets about these ludicrous, frankly loony, decisions and demanding that those responsible for her suspension and possible sacking should be the ones who are fired?

🤬

I despair that common sense - and any biological education - seems to have completely disappeared.

Galaxy

Again even the explanations are mired in sexism.

"sex assigned at birth"... (sigh)

Other than the atypical rare occasions where the ambiguity requires specialist evaluation, isn't sex noted at birth?

Maybe it's just a word-choice and means the same thing, however it can give the impression that biological sex is fluid - and can be 'assigned'.

Galaxy

Again even the explanations are mired in sexism.

Yes-dressing as a woman?
What does that mean?
The fact is that men pretending to be women seem to think it involves wearing what men think women should wear!

In the same way as men pretending to be women try to portray the way they think women should be.

Except they invade safe spaces of the opposite sex, do women do that?

Demand medical treatment for female conditions that males can’t possibly have. Do women do that?

Film themselves in female toilets to prove they’ve been in there and can’t be prevented from doing so. Do women do that?

Saying you are something you are not means you are living a lie.

Keeping that lie to yourself and not using it to cheat or upset others is one thing. In the past, since we are told frequently that trans have existed for ages, that is what they did.

Using that lie to the detriment of others and attacking them for refusing to accept your lie, reflects exactly the sort of person you are.

Have all these nurses been allowed to return to work?

Gender is a linguistic device in some languages. That's all.

He, she and it cover everything, surely? In fact, as far as sexually reproducing life-forms are concerned he and she (plus his and hers) covers everything. Sex is what matters, not whatever 'gender' is supposed to mean.

One of the great developments in English was the dropping of masculine and feminine for objects that are neither.

We do have problems with pronouns because English only has 'she' 'he' 'it'.
I think there are languages with more variation.
On the other hand, English is a living language. Should we devise more pronouns to accommodate societal changes?
I know, Pedants' Thread.
Am I brave enough.
Thanks Cossy, that's what I thought.

The only prerequisite to being a transwoman is that you have to be born male in the first place.

I don't get the "living as a woman" unless you are prepared to go back to 50s stereotype women. I'm sure the women on this forum all live our lives, which means we live as women, but I'm also sure some of us never wear a dress or makeup. Are we failing to 'live as women" ?
Bridie22 you are absolutely correct about the Supreme Court clarifying what the law has always been. Too many of our institutions have been captured by the ideology, trained by Stonewall, and are reluctant to in any way enforce it.

Cossy You are correct that trans women are, almost exclusively, biologically men, born as male, registered as male.

almost exclusively?? A female cannot be a transwoman as she is a woman. Who other than males can be transwomen? There is no third or more sex?

We can debate this until we are all blue in the face, the Supreme Court of the land ruled that a biological man must use male onlyfacilities , a biological woman must use female only spaces we cannot change biology.

Ilovecheese

What does "lived as a woman" mean?

It means “she” lived her life as if she was female? I’m not sure what you mean, Rose dressed as a woman, had a woman’s name, in their head they were female?

TerriBull

I've just read in the DM online, apologies, for a source that sometimes skew the truth, most unacceptable, a bit like that other large, but conversely well respected news outlet the BBC who have known to do the same, but for the right reasons, of course. Anyway moving on, some may remember the case of the nurse who was suspended for calling a transgender paedophile "Mr" who incidentally racially abused her, never mind, seems that's not as important as her not using the convicted paedophile's preferred pronouns.

Jennifer Melle who has already been disciplined by St Hellier Hospital in Carshalton, Surrey for her offence could now be sacked for speaking out about her ordeal. Having also been referred to the Nursing and Midwifery Council as a potential risk for allegedly breaching its conduct policy, which states that nurses should not express the truth their beliefs to people in an inappropriate way. This senior nurse of 12 years experience, had the indignity of being escorted from the premises during her shift and immediately suspended for speaking out about her treatment. She told the Mail on Sunday "I am devastated to have been suspended for whistle blowing, despite being the one placed at risk, I am the one being punished" She now faces a disciplinary hearing with her employer where she will be informed of the action against her which could mean she loses her job.

Personally, I find this case appalling and dare I say ludicrous.

This nurse should be immediately reinstated and this (in my opinion) rubbish removed from her HR record.

Pronouns are a minefield, I try and use what I feel are correct, but would never ever expect any professional, particularly in the above circumstances, to be penalised for using a pronoun the recipient finds offensive.

What does "lived as a woman" mean?

I totally get your points doodledog, and I don’t mean don’t comment if you feel my comments or statements are wrong or I misquote or misunderstand you.

When talking specifically about the “Rose” case I meant she was dressed as a woman and lived as a woman (though I find the thought that suddenly now Rose wants to impregnate their partner, imo, this would totally invalidate their claim to being transgender), so what I’m clumsily trying to say is, in her case if a male dressed as a conventional male tried to enter that particular room I would hope they’d be stopped and challenged.

Yes, hospitals are huge, however specific wards etc do tend to have the same staff working together so new person might stand out.

I've just read in the DM online, apologies, for a source that sometimes skew the truth, most unacceptable, a bit like that other large, but conversely well respected news outlet the BBC who have known to do the same, but for the right reasons, of course. Anyway moving on, some may remember the case of the nurse who was suspended for calling a transgender paedophile "Mr" who incidentally racially abused her, never mind, seems that's not as important as her not using the convicted paedophile's preferred pronouns.

Jennifer Melle who has already been disciplined by St Hellier Hospital in Carshalton, Surrey for her offence could now be sacked for speaking out about her ordeal. Having also been referred to the Nursing and Midwifery Council as a potential risk for allegedly breaching its conduct policy, which states that nurses should not express the truth their beliefs to people in an inappropriate way. This senior nurse of 12 years experience, had the indignity of being escorted from the premises during her shift and immediately suspended for speaking out about her treatment. She told the Mail on Sunday "I am devastated to have been suspended for whistle blowing, despite being the one placed at risk, I am the one being punished" She now faces a disciplinary hearing with her employer where she will be informed of the action against her which could mean she loses her job.

Again even the explanations are mired in sexism.

Maremia

Sorry to interrupt the flow again, but, in the past, men 'pretending' to be women, i.e. dressing up, cross dressing, were not called trans-sexual. The name was 'transvestite'
Is that term out of date now?

According to Mr Google,

“ The key difference is that transvestite (now often called cross-dresser) refers to wearing clothes of a different gender, often for expression or pleasure, without necessarily identifying as that gender, while transsexual (an older term for transgender) describes someone whose internal gender identity differs from their sex assigned at birth, often leading to a desire for physical transition. Transvestites cross-dress; transgender/transsexual people are the gender they identify with, and clothing is just one aspect of living as their true gender.”

Yes it is interesting what is happening, I do wonder if lgb alliance will emerge as the new charity and stonewall with its financial woes will disappear.

I believe there has been a schism between LGB and LGBTQ. Hardly surprising given some of the misogynistic behaviour and articles, particularly those aimed at lesbians who want to maintain women only events. Their critics often supported by certain journalists who write for the Guardian, a publication that doesn't support women who rail against their stance on this matter. Hadley Freeman who now writes for The Sunday Times has often stated how she and other colleagues were thrown under the bus for daring to critise The Guardian's accepted group think on the debacle.

He placed cameras in the toilet, it isn't unheard of.
I would say in terms of conflation of lgb and trans that gender ideology is one of the most homophobic movemnts I have ever seen.

Sorry to interrupt the flow again, but, in the past, men 'pretending' to be women, i.e. dressing up, cross dressing, were not called trans-sexual. The name was 'transvestite'
Is that term out of date now?