Well done to the Nurses who stood up for Women’s Rights

What Galaxy described, about filming in toilets, appears to be sadly, very common in South Korea.
Not relevant to this Thread, but thought I would mention it in passing.

Galaxy

That was me. I try not to lie.

You are correct that trans women are, almost exclusively, biologically men, born as male, registered as male.

Your “truth” that trans women are “men pretending to be women” isn’t a phrase with which I agree.

I will respectfully agree to disagree.

Yes, people talk about three spaces. Again why not?
New buildings are going up all the time. Start making the accommodation available now.

The LGBT+ was always a conflation.

In your opinion, in my opinion it’s valid and unless you’re part of this community, or have a close friend or family member who is, whilst you have the right to air your “views”, it doesn’t make you right.

Lathyrus3

Another thing we have to challenge is the conflation of trans with gay.

And the using of examples of gay experiences in discussing trans issues. They are not valid.

The LGBT+ was always a conflation.

No figures re crimes, particularly crimes of a sexual or violent nature are valid so there is no point referring to them.
Not until the misrecording of male crimes as female is rectified.

They are completely valid when talking about “discrimination” which always rears its head whenever trans are discussed.

Given that they form under 1% of our current population it’s quite likely that it is not them committing sexual and violent crimes against women.

Galaxy

So I worked for an organisation were a man filmed women without their knowledge, on the toilet, strangely enough his ID badge, the fact that people knew him or his role in the organisation didn't stop him doing that.

Point taken, but a bit off point if he wasn’t “Trans”, when I worked in a busy jobcentre we did actually challenge anyone trying to enter the building at the staff entrance even with a valid ID, if we did not know them, but of course that wouldn’t have worked in your example Galaxy as this man worked in your organisation. What a strange and disgusting thing to do and I wonder how people didn’t notice that? Really gives me the chills.

Another thing we have to challenge is the conflation of trans with gay.

And the using of examples of gay experiences in discussing trans issues. They are not valid.

The LGBT+ was always a conflation.

No figures re crimes, particularly crimes of a sexual or violent nature are valid so there is no point referring to them.
Not until the misrecording of male crimes as female is rectified.

On a purely practical level, it does surprise me if there are still hospitals that have changing rooms which serve multiple departments, I’ve worked in lots of different hospitals in my career, and all of them lost their communal changing facilities years ago, because they were large spaces, so prime expansion accommodation for clinical services. Most changing is now at ward or department level, where space is very compromised.

We cross-posted, Cossy.

I'm not really able to agree to disagree though, or not if that means not responding to posts that suggest things that are contrary to women's rights. These matters are very important to women.

I respect the fact that there are different views on this matter, but am not happy to sit on my hands when my words are twisted, or when it is implied that I am being discriminatory.

Do you really think that all staff in a hospital are known to all others? There are several shifts, numerous departments and categories of staff, some of whom will have been there for years and others weeks. Maybe in a cottage hospital people will know most of their colleagues by sight, but it is highly unlikely that this will be the case in a General Hospital. And anyway, we need laws and regulations here, so things are not left open to interpretation. We can't have a situation where rules are made depending on how likely it is that staff will know one another.

I'm really not following your logic. You say that I am right that 'men' (your speech marks) shouldn't enter women's spaces, but that Rose was wearing women's clothes, as though that makes a difference. Rose is a man, who is trying to father a child. In what sense do you see Rose a woman? Her clothing? I don't become a man when I wear jeans.

Can you imagine the outcry if Rose were given a cupboard to dress in? If Rose had any care for the sex Rose claims to belong to, Rose would not have let this get to the point that it has. As I see it, there is very clearly power play going on - does that not seem obvious to you? In Rose's position I would travel to work in my scrubs, so I didn't need to change on the premises, or find another way around forcing myself on people who so badly wanted me to change elsewhere that they were prepared to go to court. That would be much more likely to make Rose seem less of a threat to the sex she would like to belong to, surely?

That was me. I try not to lie.

Apologies doodledog it wasn’t you using the phrase “men pretending to be women”, it was another poster.

So I worked for an organisation were a man filmed women without their knowledge, on the toilet, strangely enough his ID badge, the fact that people knew him or his role in the organisation didn't stop him doing that.

Mollygo

The problem for harmless TW has arisen because of TW themselves. I don’t dispute that there were trans living peacefully and unnoticed.

If they feel aggrieved that their lives are upset by the rule that in truth, trans remain the sex they were born with, maybe they’ll understand the distress caused to women (AHF) by those TW who don’t want to live peacefully and unnoticed.

Unfortunately those TW have opened Pandora’s box and are busy displaying their cheating, lying, threatening behaviour to the detriment of females and other TW.

I disagree, but maybe you’ve never experienced direct discrimination towards you or your children? I don’t know you so I’m not judging.

Worth watching

Https://youtube.com/live/Vz8t47sODic?

Cossy

Btw way, where’s your evidence that trans men are usually straight men pretending to be trans in order to be sexual predators?

I completely accept that trans women, biologically male, are likely to be larger and stronger, I also accept that some “straight” men have pretended to be trans in order to access women. They are criminals!

I didn't use the word 'pretending', or suggest that transwomen are men who claim that status 'in order to be sexual predators' 🙄. I thought the days of having words completely twisted on these threads were over.

As has been said repeatedly on threads like this, there are few reliable statistics when it comes to trans issues. The language ceases to have meaning when men can say they are women because of 'feelings' - particularly when those feelings are about something they are, by definition, not. If the words 'woman' and 'female' mean whatever you want them to mean, how can a question such as 'which sex do you belong to?' hope to get meaningful answers. Similarly, questions about sexuality are pointless when men can identify as lesbian on the grounds that in their 'feelings' they are women, but in their bodies they are straight men who fancy women?

Nevertheless, most men are straight, as are most women. Unless you are suggesting that transwomen are more likely to be gay men (if so, do you have a source for that?) then of course most of them will be likewise.

Doodledog

I agree with most of your comments, and appreciate you feel it’s a tiny minority of people who might harm women.

As you state (quite rightly) you cannot have “men” going freely into women’s spaces, however, Rose was dressed as a woman, a member of staff, and would have ID and known to staff, one would hope if a male dressed as a male tried to enter any staff area someone would stop them. You also mentioned how large hospitals are, surely a larger cupboard or very small room, could be made available if and when needed?

As for those areas where we don’t agree with each other, respectfully, I’d like to agree to disagree.

You’re right. You have made yourself unpopular. They are not snowflake nurses they are real women who don’t want to undress in front of a man pretending to be a woman . He can go change in the cupboard.

The problem for harmless TW has arisen because of TW themselves. I don’t dispute that there were trans living peacefully and unnoticed.

If they feel aggrieved that their lives are upset by the rule that in truth, trans remain the sex they were born with, maybe they’ll understand the distress caused to women (AHF) by those TW who don’t want to live peacefully and unnoticed.

Unfortunately those TW have opened Pandora’s box and are busy displaying their cheating, lying, threatening behaviour to the detriment of females and other TW.

Lathyrus3

The trans lobby have successfully pushed some sound bites that actually can’t be verified like “trans people are more likely to be harmed than cause harm,”

It sounds as if that’s right because it fits in with other sound bites.

‘One of the most marginalised groups in society.”
“Subject to discrimination.”

Except we know that in recent years trans people have not been the most marginalised. Women have. The demands of the trans lobby have caused women to lose not just their spaces, but their jobs, to have their health put at risk, to be prevented from accessing vital services and to be threatened and ostracised.

The claim that trans people are more at risk than women is not only vague but cannot be substantiated, particularly since there has been a substantial period until very recently when crimes by transwomen were recorded as crimes by females.

Add in the persecution that any female was subjected to if she dared to complain or even question the actions of a transwoman towards her and all anyone can say is that we cannot possibly know that trans people are more likely to be harmed.

We have to challenge these soundbites that are reiterated as facts,

I disagree, we are both able to debate and disagree, there are statistics to back up my “assertions” or as you like to call them, “soundbites”.

Gay people, back in day, were also more likely to be attacked verbally or physically than straight people, sadly this hasn’t totally disappeared. Both my daughters, only 25 & 28, have both been subjected to homophobic abuse and name calling, it’s not nice!

When working in the Civil Service, I worked with a trans woman and a trans man, both very open about their “situations”, I got to know the trans man very well and they were more than happy to talk about the “why” and reasons behind how they were living their lives this way and how many friends stuck by them, but that both parents had “disowned” them. They went on to marry another couple and they live peacefully with their many cats and dogs and both do worthwhile public service job roles.

So maybe I do know what I’m talking about and have (perhaps limited) but actual “real lived” experience.

I don’t give a damn how anyone chooses (though being gay isn’t a “life choice”),
so long as it is within our laws and doesn’t involve harming or damaging anyone else. People should all have the same rights to be protected, never at the expense of any other person or group of people.

I do believe I women’s rights, because for too many years women had few and were not afforded the same rights as men.

Cossy

Doodledog

People on threads about trans rights versus women’s rights so often suggest third spaces, as though they will just appear from the skies. In existing buildings there are often no spare rooms for reallocation, so someone else will have to be inconvenienced to pacify the ‘tiny minority of the most vulnerable people who are at risk of self harm if they don’t get their own way’.

It can cost a fortune to reroute plumbing in old buildings, so as well as evicting people from the new space the NHS would have to find £££ that could have been spent on creating space for people being treated in corridors.

Carving up existing rooms for a ‘tiny minority’ makes no sense either - if one in a thousand staff would use the room, how big should it be? My guess is not big enough to be useable, and then there would be complaints of discrimination if the trans changing rooms are significantly smaller than others.

Do we need four spaces as well as the disabled facilities? Male, female, transmen and transwomen? Who else ‘needs’ to be accommodated?

We have single sex spaces for a reason. Women are at risk from some men, and more so when the women are vulnerable and/or in a state of undress. Transwomen are men, usually straight men, and are usually stronger than women. If transwomen are allowed in women’s spaces they are no longer single sex, and the women are vulnerable to both physical assault and to being made to feel uncomfortable by the presence of males in what would be a single sex space.

It’s not about tolerance or ‘being kind’, and ‘just provide third spaces’ is a facile response.

So what’s your solution then? Place the trans person back into make changing rooms? I see no reason why an area cannot be sectioned (if and when needed) for anyone.

Very rude to call my suggestions “facile”

Is it rude? How would you describe a 'solution' that takes into account none of the accommodations that would have to be made, and only considers the views of the 'tiny minority' who insist that their wants are put before everyone else's? 'Facile' just means 'easy' or 'superficial', which your 'solution' is (to me), but if you can suggest a better word I'd be happy to use it.

I don't have a solution - it's not my role to accommodate minorities in the NHS, and non-experts butting in would be no help at all. As we see on these threads, there is a lot of difference of opinion, and we need legal guidelines, not exhortations to 'be kind'. Anyway, to me, there is no need for a solution to what is not a problem.

Single sex spaces exist so that women are safe from the minority of men who might take advantage of our vulnerability, and to afford both sexes the dignity of being able to use the loo and remove their clothes away from the other sex. There are two sexes - so-called 'gender' doesn't alter that - so there is no need for third, fourth or X number of extra spaces.

Sectioning off areas is no solution either. A screen is no protection from the male gaze or from a potential attacker, and it would be up to the users to erect it, so conflicts would be almost inevitable.

Hospitals are busy places, with the public having access to most areas. Anyone can wander around, and if it is acceptable for men to enter women's spaces nobody will turn a hair. As it is/was/will be, a man going into a women's loo/changing room can be challenged and possible assault prevented.

It's not really about whether we as an individual are bothered or not by undressing in front of a man, apart from our partner, no matter how well we know them. It's about safety, dignity and privacy for all women and girls, many who would feel vulnerable, if alone in a changing room with someone who is obviously male. There are times at gyms and health clubs where the changing room can be very quiet, smaller places may be a place where one could find themselves the only person there, occasionally I've found that. Can we not put ourselves in the position of how unnerving most women, let alone a young girl would feel to find an individual who is a male bodied person in their midst as they emerge from the shower area with just a towel round them.

In any case also spare a though for those from conservative backgrounds who would be prohibited by their culture to be in a mixed sex situation, but in any case most of us would feel as they do.

Galaxy

But consent isn't transferable so the fact that some women aren't comfortable means no men in women's spaces.

Yes, exactly. Cossy may feel comfortable changing in front of a man. I would not - whether that person was a colleague or not. The minute you let a man - any man - into women's spaces, they are no longer women's spaces.

But consent isn't transferable so the fact that some women aren't comfortable means no men in women's spaces.

TerriBull

I think it must be awful for the trans women who have always been with us but quietly went about living their lives until the vociferous and increasingly aggressive amongst their numbers started pushing the issue and asserting what they perceived to be their rights.

I don't think we've ever reached here thank God what previously happened in the US and Canada whose individual stances were absolute in trouncing women's rights in favour of that aggressive minority. Exemplified by the "Lea Thomas" debacle. The trans woman swimmer, who could never disguise their male physique, was granted the whole of the locker room to change. Meanwhile the actual women who had raised objections to his eyeing them up whilst in a state of undress, were told they were bigots, but of course! and then were forced into the much smaller and not really conducive to stripping off and on whilst the man had the luxury of the entire communal changing area to his self.

I agree, in this case 1) they shouldn’t have been competing against women and 2) they should have been allocated the small, less suitable changing area.

At the 2021 census there were 48,000 trans women (or as some like to put it “men pretending to be women”, or I as view it, men now living their lives now as women) There are no published figures for later than that as yet.

This is in England and Wales, I believe that there are less than 300 of these people in prison and approximately two thirds of these committed crimes against women.

In my opinion, people are a danger to other people, sadly most violent crimes are committed by men, men are stronger normally and possibly more prone to aggression.

However, the incidents of violent and sexual crimes by both children and women is steadily rising.

Back to topic, would it bother me to change with a male colleague, no probably not if I trusted and knew the person, would I choose too? No, not by choice, would I complain if it made me feel uncomfortable, yes, would I prefer single sex changing rooms everywhere, yes.

However, this may now be due to my age, back in the day I would have had no issue stripping down to underwear and changing, it take what, five minutes or less to change clothes.