Not ‘ school-ready’.

I am wondering if we are all thinking of ""toilet trained' in the same way?
I understand toilet trained to mean the child can take itself to the toilet, take down its clothes, sit on toilet/potty, do whatever, wipe its bottom, pull up clothes and wash hands.
And be able to do the same at night time or go through the night dry.
I think this is not achievable until 2 to 3 years old.
A friend used to say her son was toilet trained at under a year simply because she held him over a potty several/many times a day and was often lucky. He wasn't talking at that age and was unable to ask for the potty and certainly couldn't walk to get there himself.

I think myDDs were dry during the day at about 2 1/2 maybe a bit before as that was summer time and easier. Dry all night was a bit longer, but we often did a late night trip with half asleep child before we went to bed.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but I very much doubt the problems are widespread. they are probably concentrated in areas of deprivation. Oh, and it was single parents who got the blame back then - the ones who didn't work

It isn’t about ‘areas of deprivation’. A mother interviewed about this on TV very articulately explained her view that if her child isn’t ‘ready’ to be toilet trained they will just kick back. I think if they had to wash nappies their children would be ‘ready’ for toilet training much sooner.

Yes the dreaded nappy bucket was certainly an encouragement to potty/toilet train

I believe that many parents do need two salaries, given the price of property nowadays.

Many wives today really prefer going to work, instead of being a stay at home mum.

The days of the husband going out to work and the wife staying at home are long gone.

As all mums now have a mobile phone, a lot of them either stick a dummy or a bottle in the child's mouth, while they continue their scrolling.

Lots of these mums put their social contacts way ahead of teaching their children to be potty trained and ready for school. It's a sad indictment of today's society.

However, I recently saw a mum on the bus with a toddler. The little boy was standing on the seat while she balanced him and had a continuous conversation about the trees, the flowers and the birds that he could see.

I honestly felt like congratulating her before I got off the bus!

I think a lot of shaming went on in our days. You would be ashamed if your children were still not toilet trained by the time they went to school.

Yes, I think that's true. Others would look on you as a lazy, neglectful mother, unless, of course, you child had a disability.

Added to which all that nappy washing and drying whereas now it's disposable. So easy and the child doesn't feel uncomfortable.

I must say the nappy advert where the child does a poonami in the middle of the night then settles happily back to sleep without disturbing the parents makes me shudder. At one time, leaving a child in a filthy nappy would have meant an extremely sore bottom and nappy rash. Do disposable nappies dispose of a poonami too?

HelterSkelter1

I understand toilet trained to mean the child can take itself to the toilet, take down its clothes, sit on toilet/potty, do whatever, wipe its bottom, pull up clothes and wash hands.
And be able to do the same at night time or go through the night dry.
I think this is not achievable until 2 to 3 years old.

To me toilet training starts with the child recognising and articulating when they need to use the potty training. It was called potty training years ago and towelling, waterproof pants were useful, along with summer days. Some were more speedy than others to get the message.

Being fully trained to go to the toilet, wash hands etc takes longer but in most cases should be achievable by four.

Many children are not dry at night for years and used to be referred to a clinic with enuresis; I remember a lot of cases of children who were continent during the day but not at night.

training superfluous word!

It's the language deficit that it so upsetting. Teachers reporting that little ones can barely express their needs let alone join in imaginary play or unable to sit and enjoy story time.
So heart breaking to think of kiddies not knowing of a hedgehog or kingfisher, fat shiny conkers & nursery rhymes all fading away.
You have to know of these things to care for them.

jenpax

Geordiegirl1

I recall children at school in my childhood who had many other problems and for longer. Grubby, smelly, who wore wellies all year or plimsolls in winter, some children with persistent nits and who, in those days, had their hair shaved off as thé parents were unable to eradicate them and the home was beyond help. Telltale purple splodges of violet round mouths. These children, shunned at school, will now be grandparents. It’s takes generations, persistence and support, to raise standards of child care, in many instances.

What does purple around the mouth signify?

Gentian Violet is an antiseptic/ antibacterial used to treat skin and tissue fungal and other infections. It does stain the skin.

keepcalmandcavachon

It's the language deficit that it so upsetting. Teachers reporting that little ones can barely express their needs let alone join in imaginary play or unable to sit and enjoy story time.
So heart breaking to think of kiddies not knowing of a hedgehog or kingfisher, fat shiny conkers & nursery rhymes all fading away.
You have to know of these things to care for them.

Working in early years, at song &story time we would ask new children if they had favourite songs. We noticed how the songs and rhymes known to children were decreasing, and over the space of a few years, went from children having a variety of favourites to ‘Baa Baa Black Sheep’ being the only one they knew.
Interestingly, the children who were looked after by grandparents often had a much wider repertoire than those who weren’t. We were particularly impressed by the wee fellow who delivered a splendid performance of ‘ Sit Down, You’re Rockin’ the Boat’ on his first day!

I have a few relatives who are primary school teachers who have spent time in reception classes.
From what they tell me it can vary so much - one relative says they have rarely had a child come to them either nursery year or reception who could not use the toilet independently given or take the odd accident (leafy suburb, two parents house with garden). Another relative often had about five or six in nappies out of thirty at the start of the year (single parent, high rise flat, drug use, mental health issues) these children need the help of teachers and adults in school.

One of my children started school with a child from the local Chinese restaurant who could not speak one word of English. She was certainly house-trained but couldn’t ask to go to the loo or how to get there.
This lack of school readiness must be common in many areas.

watermeadow

One of my children started school with a child from the local Chinese restaurant who could not speak one word of English. She was certainly house-trained but couldn’t ask to go to the loo or how to get there.
This lack of school readiness must be common in many areas.

“House trained”?!
Cats and dogs are house trained, not children (of whatever race!).

What an unpleasant post.

When DS started school 50 years ago, (oh my gosh was it that long ago?), the Head teacher insisted that for the first half term all starters had to go home for lunch, obviously exceptions where this was a problem. She also said that if a child was very tired or stressed, she was quite happy if on occasion they did not come back to school after lunch but stayed home.

DS was physically school ready and mentally, but he was/is a worrier and he insisted coming home for lunch through out infant school, although he always went back afterwards. He was happy at school and doing well. It was just him.

On the other hand DD could not wait to get to school and stay for school lunch. She was quite forward, but with a May birthday would be heading for 5 and a half before she started school. Her pre-school suggested that, if we could afford it, we sent her to the kindergarten class at a local private school when she was 4. We did, and as with her brother, brought her home for lunch. Within days, she was demanding that she have a proper packed lunch like the other children and stay all day.

Temprement can come into whether a child is school ready at 5. Both mine had control and could manage toiletting etc, but while DS, at 5 was eager to learn, he found the playground daunting and preferred to have some quiet at lunch time. DD was school ready at 3, physically and socially. Same home, same pre-school.

HelterSkelter1

Yes the dreaded nappy bucket was certainly an encouragement to potty/toilet train

😂it sure was.

Basgetti

watermeadow

One of my children started school with a child from the local Chinese restaurant who could not speak one word of English. She was certainly house-trained but couldn’t ask to go to the loo or how to get there.
This lack of school readiness must be common in many areas.

“House trained”?!
Cats and dogs are house trained, not children (of whatever race!).

What an unpleasant post.

Why choose to think it’s unpleasant when watermeadow clearly meant toilet-trained.

I don’t believe they did. The reference to the local Chinese restaurant seems pretty obvious. Why is that at all relevant?

Oreo

Basgetti

watermeadow

One of my children started school with a child from the local Chinese restaurant who could not speak one word of English. She was certainly house-trained but couldn’t ask to go to the loo or how to get there.
This lack of school readiness must be common in many areas.

“House trained”?!
Cats and dogs are house trained, not children (of whatever race!).

What an unpleasant post.

Why choose to think it’s unpleasant when watermeadow clearly meant toilet-trained.

House trained might refer to dogs but in fact, in essence, it means the same as toilet training for children.

Knowing when you need to go and asking to use the facilities.
Toddlers and puppies need training, patience and persistence.

I know a child who could not speak a word of the language when she started school but came top of the year at the end of her first year.
She wasn't Chinese, though, she was English!

That is a problem for teachers because many children do not speak English when they start school in some areas and others speak little, as English is not their first language.
Others may have poor language skill even if English is their first language.

Basgetti

I don’t believe they did. The reference to the local Chinese restaurant seems pretty obvious. Why is that at all relevant?

Sorry, Basgetti you are over thinking this. The word 'house-trained' is often used as a neologism for potty-training these days, especially when so many families end up potty training pets and children at the same time.

Basgetti

I don’t believe they did. The reference to the local Chinese restaurant seems pretty obvious. Why is that at all relevant?

It was relevant because, although the child was toilet-trained (or house-trained, whatever) she could not speak English so could not put her hand up and ask to go to the loo.

That is the point.

In one of my reading groups last year was a Chinese child who was the only one in his family that spoke any English at all. The school were working very hard to improve his reading skills and he was doing very well, but it made me wonder what a weight of responsibility this put on one so young. There are many young children who come into schools with little or no English. Add to that those native born who start schools with very poor language skills and you can see why teachers have an uphill task.

Greyduster My MiL used to talk of children starting school who had been talked at, talked over and talked through, as under 5s, but never talked to.

She said she had to teach them concepts like shapes. How can a child learn to read when they cannot recognise or differentiate between a suare, a circle or a triangle? In the reception year she was expected to get children to a level where the basics of reading were well established. very difficult she said when the first two terms are spent getting many children reading ready.

This I might say was in the 1960/70s. Sadly things do not seem to have improved, but are not substantially worse, just the problems are different.

My late MiL taught in a primary school in Normanton during the General Strike; most of her pupils came from very disadvantaged homes but it was her proud boast that of the 40 children in the class only 2 or 3 would be totally unable to read and write at the end of the year. Obviously the reading skills of the rest varied from confident to improving, and plainly discipline was no problem, but for her it was the most important job in the world. Both my children learned with her before they started school at 4 and a half and she was clearly a very gifted teacher of young children.

Another aspect of this is nappies. I had to get my boys trained as soon as possible to save money on nappies. Most of these mums get benefits so it doesn’t matter. Lazy parenting.

Golly, Menopauselbitch, " most of these mums get benefits"..
How do you know this?