Four more horses die in the name of ‘sport’

Foxie, nobody would disagree that the English thoroughbred is beautiful and good for purpose, nor that good horsemanship is a worthy skill.

The English thoroughbred is artificial like the Aberdeen Angus bull is artificial. (Among horses possibly the more 'natural ;animal is the Exmoor pony)

Humans created breeds for purposes, and human purposes are seldom as ethical as you would seem to portray. You are a good person and I guess you are among the minority of wise and ethical keepers of TB horses.

I'm not sure what you mean by "more natural" Caleo. Exmoors are owned and managed. They graze on the moor but they are not "wild" per se, they get rounded up, some are sold, some are culled if they don't measure up to the breed standards, they are bred selectively to ensure not only the purity of the breed but also to ensure the breed stays healthy. In the past Exmoors, like many native breeds, started to decline in both health and numbers because of in breeding and there being a small gene pool.

foxie48

Totally agree GG13

What I love about GN is there's always an opportunity to learn something new. MayBee70 I think Sprinter Sacre is one of the most beautiful horses ever, I saw him at Cheltenham Festival years ago and won a bit of money too. I had no idea he was a Selle Francais, I just assumed he was a full TB. He's still alive and living in Gloucestershire with the Henderson's. He had a knock in the field and was operated on to have some bone chips removed earlier this year but to date he's had 10 years of retirement from racing. fwiw an equine arthroscopy costs several thousands of pounds and tbh most owners would struggle to find that sort of money to repair an old retired horse nor have the money to continue to insure! The only options would be to leave the horse in pain or PTS.

I didn’t know he was a selle Francais either. I knew about The Fellow because he beat my beloved Desert Orchid. I was at Cheltenham when Sprinter won the Supreme. I always stand by the pre parade ring so I must have seen him. When he had his problem Nico was in tears;he rode work on him one day and realised something was wrong. Then Nicky brought him back to full fitness and when he regained his crown grown men were in tears. Altior is living with Mick Fitzgerald. He had colic recently but thankfully recovered. I still regard my true friends as the ones that, when Desert Orchid nearly died of colic, phoned me up to see if I was ok ( I wasn’t; I was in bits). My gravestone is going to read “1952 to whenever; she kissed Desert Orchid” .

Oh, you can't beat a good grey, DO was a complete legend! We had our own DO, he was only 148cm, part Connie but the rest was TB and when young he was very, very naughty and nappy. Once he'd grown up a bit and my daughter had built a partnership with him, he was a really talented eventer capable of competing successfully against horses. I have a painting of him on the wall so I see him every day.

I nearly bought a grey pony for my daughter but it had a melanoma. The vet said ‘ this woman is doing everything she can to stop me doing my job properly’. She even used her disabled daughter to show what a well behaved pony he was ( he wasn’t he was drugged up to the eyeballs). Narrow escape, that.

I guess you are among the minority of wise and ethical keepers of TB horses.

Guessing does not make something a fact.

foxie48

I'm not sure what you mean by "more natural" Caleo. Exmoors are owned and managed. They graze on the moor but they are not "wild" per se, they get rounded up, some are sold, some are culled if they don't measure up to the breed standards, they are bred selectively to ensure not only the purity of the breed but also to ensure the breed stays healthy. In the past Exmoors, like many native breeds, started to decline in both health and numbers because of in breeding and there being a small gene pool.

True. "Natural" is a relative term. Forgive me, I meant the pure bred Exmoor is managed so it retains many true wild pony characteristics.

foxie48

Oh, you can't beat a good grey, DO was a complete legend! We had our own DO, he was only 148cm, part Connie but the rest was TB and when young he was very, very naughty and nappy. Once he'd grown up a bit and my daughter had built a partnership with him, he was a really talented eventer capable of competing successfully against horses. I have a painting of him on the wall so I see him every day.

I have the impression that the native pony strain(eg Connemara) is more intelligent than the larger horse. We sometimes don't require a mount to be intelligent ,as intelligence is the basic cause of nappiness and other rebellion. What to do you think?

I guess it depends how you define intelligence. With dogs Border Collies are supposed to be more intelligent than sighthounds because they do as they’re told. Whereas sighthounds do what suits them. Recall is hit and miss…if they see something on the horizon that takes their fancy they’re off. Is it more intelligent to decide to do what’s best for themselves?What does fascinate me is the way animals have senses that are beyond our comprehension. Smell, hearing telepathy. I often wonder what my dogs life is like in that she gets so much information from sniffing. And they say their time clock is down to smell etc. When you go out they know that when your smell has reduced by a certain amount you will be returning. Cats know when you’re going on holiday and it isn’t just because they see you packing. Horses will stand by the gate knowing someone is on the way to feed them. A horse that is quite fiery will be gentle as a lamb with a small child or a disabled person. Endo the blind horse learned how to navigate the world without sight and listened to what his owner told him to do. He jumped, did trail riding…everything a sighted horse could do.

Caleo I can't really distinguish between intelligence, instinct and training because I used all three when working with horses. Nappiness is IMO understandable, particularly in youngsters, because horses are herd animals. I'm not sure it's a sign of intelligence more instinct, I think, and overcoming it IMO comes with consistent training, patience and sometimes finding what works for that particular horse. tbh I don't really think equines are "naughty" I think what we perceive as "naughty" is often a sign that the horse doesn't understand, is uncomfortable or is just questioning the rider/ horse relationship a bit. Equines are very sensitive to body language both in and out the saddle so they are constantly picking up information about us humans that they use in their relationships with us, just like they do with other equines.

Ladies, GNs please re-read this Thread and say in which post I mentioned 'numbers'.
And may I ask. Numbers of what?

Try BBC Sport 25th March for info about gene therapy testing.

Maremia

Try BBC Sport 25th March for info about gene therapy testing.

The one where it says there s no evidence that Gene Therapy doping has been used in acing but that the BHA wants to protect against any future possibility and has spent £2,000,000 doing that.

I think that shows how determined they are they there should be no doping of any kind in British horse racing.

Could you pos the link to the sites you found on Google saying doping was a current problem.

In spite of using Google and other search engines as well I can’t find any.

Once upon a time someone who had a horse raced it against their friends' horse or horses. Some Borders common ridings events still have race days when this happens , and there is no commercial purpose at all----simply a local event for local people.

We are not against owning and riding horses . We oppose the racing industry in its commercialised state

Show jumping is sometimes overdone when horses are made to jump terrifying obstacles. I am not sure about dressage----I may be wrong but there seems to be no cruelty in dressage.

I am glad there are horsey people who conserve rare breeds such as the Suffolk Punch and the bay Clydesdale.

Maremia

Try BBC Sport 25th March for info about gene therapy testing.

As Lathyrus says, it is being introduced to make sure that this does not happen in future, both here and internationally.

There have been no cases found in this country as yet.

Dressage actually puts a lot of strain on horses tendons.

And the 'numbers' comment?

Now Allira, and GNs, do you think the 'gene therapy' has not happened here because racehorse owners are benign, too good to their horses, and would never, ever consider it,
or
because if they do they will be caught?

I don't know if it has been used for benign purposes and I know that trials have been taking place in humans too (sadly not for old people like me, eg instead of knee replacements etc).

It is the possibility of it being used for performance enhancement that is banned.

fgs, no one has suggested that racehorse owners/trainers/ jockeys/ bookies etc are all benign. They are representative of a large group of people and there will be a few baddies in there just like any other group of people. They do gene therapy testing in lots of sports eg cycling but no one is suggesting cyclists are all people who will use dope to gain advantage but the testing will hopefully catch anyone who does.

I am not sure about dressage----I may be wrong but there seems to be no cruelty in dressage.

Sadly, you are wrong, there is cruelty in dressage, cruelty far worse than the Charlotte du Jardin episode, which I am inclined to believe was only severely penalised by the FEI, the dressage governing body, because it involved the use of a whip and that is firmly associated with cruelty in the eyes of the general public and with the Olympics due to start not punishing it would have given dressage a very bad image.

There is the use of severe bits, nosebands which crank the horse's mouth tight shut and overuse of spurs. But the non horsey public wouldn't know about how bad this can be.

Then there are methods used to force the horse's head into what is considered to be the right position, the arched neck and the front of the head vertical (or even behind the vertical. which are actually not in accordance with the principle that the highest point of the neck should be at the poll, just behind the ears and the nose should be vertical or slightly in advance of the vertical.

A horse naturally uses its hindquarters to propel itself forward, not its forelegs but forcing it into this neck and head position can hamper the use of its hindquarters so it has to drag itself forward with its front legs, putting stress on muscles which aren't designed to do that. And when horses are doing flashy things with their forelegs people don't notice that its back legs are doing very little.

And I bet most non horsey people are unaware that if a horse in a dressage competition has signs of blood on its sides or around its mouth it is eliminated? It's shocking that this rule even exists because no horse should ever be subject to techniques which draw blood...

This isn't a blanket condemnation of dressage by any means, just of the way that some riders achieve what the judges appear to like at a great cost to the horse... Watching top level dressage can be a great pleasure or absolutely excruciating.

Maremia

And the 'numbers' comment?

And the link to the site I’ve asked for twice and now a third time.

Having trouble finding it🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

And check out Tennesee Walking Horses. Now that really is barbaric.

Some owners will pay tens of thousands of pounds on stem cell treatment to repair tendons without even knowing if the horse will ever race again. Dream Alliance had that treatment and his group of owners weren't well off at all; quite the opposite.

Maizie As someone who follows dressage and competed myself (albeit at a relatively low level Adv med) sadly much of what you have said is true but it is not the norm. I was at the last Olympics in Paris specifically to watch all of the dressage and there is definitely a move to reward correctly trained horses that move with freedom and less tension. Interestingly, it definitely affected the marks. I was with a listed judge and we both agreed that generally the reason some well known competitors had done less well than previously was they had been forced to give their horses more freedom and I am absolutely for that.
The atmosphere at Versailles was electric and even getting a horse into the arena was, IMO, a real test of horsemanship let alone producing a relaxed, tension free test. I am conflicted, I've watched wonderful freestyles that have literally brought tears, I've watched some that have made me feel uncomfortable but equally I've ridden some that have been on the edge and I've felt glad to have survived.
Riding horses, particularly competition horses is not for the faint hearted, they are capable of killing you, they are powerful animals with a mind of their own and they are unpredictable. If a rider is a bit strong in the hand, or uses the curb too much in a double bridle, yup, I've been there, done that and regretted it. The trouble is, horses aren't machines they don't come with a handbook and they are all so different. As I said, I'm really conflicted, love the sport, love to watch well trained horses and riders but also aware that some riders will use short cuts to produce what they want and that is neither good for the horse nor good for dressage but I want the sport to survive.
Basic dressage is the foundation of good riding and done properly as basic schooling builds the correct musculature that will protect a ridden equine, it also give riders the skills to keep themselves and the horse safe and IMO helps to build the relationship between horse and rider.