Are White British Men somehow “disadvantaged”

Maybe the terms "men's jobs," "women's jobs" is a label left over from the 1950s and does not apply anymore - in the developed nations.

Cossy

Oreo I think many boys would. My grandson is about to start an all boys secondary school (state non-selective) in September, I’ll report back.

My only fear, for want of a better word, is that boys and girls do need to interact during puberty and teens, so educating them both separately is great, so long as they get the chance to do other activities mixing with each other. Our DGS dances and does musical theatre where he and the other few male dancers are surrounded by girls!

Both my children went to single sex secondary schools, on balance to their advantage, outside school they were still socialising with friends who had siblings of the opposite sex, likewise family members.

DS was at boarding school but when it came to the leavers ball he had no difficulty asking a female friend (actually he got in a muddle and asked two) who he met through his schools joint activities with local girl's schools.

“So this was in last week’s news; www.linkedin.com/posts/elliot-hammer-37522920_middle-class-white-men-banned-from-public-activity-7469009904591155200-oyye

This is wrong, I believe strongly in meritocracy, it should always be the best person for the job.

Cossy I am amazed you know the voting habits of your friendship group, do you have to fill in an application to join?”

Sago

Firstly, thank you for your example, and I agree this, on the surface, appears wrong. I cannot get into Telegraph full article to investigate this further, but if it’s completely accurate, then I’m guessing the advert and intern will have to be pulled.

I have friends and indeed family across a political spectrum, what I said was none support Reform, that’s entirely different to knowing who they actually vote for on Polling day!

Macaydia, I, like you, am concerned about the phrase " women taking men's jobs". I have no experience of the Metropolitan Police, so cannot comment on the previous posting.
However, I do have knowledge of other workplaces, and have seen only successful appointments reflecting the best candidate.
As I have stated elsewhere, my DIL is an engineer, leading her department in an international firm. She has been consulted by a prestigious university on course content. If she did " take a man's job" it's because she was better than him, unpalatable though that might be to some .
Oh, and the percentage of female headteachers to male headteachers has gone down over the last twenty years. Maybe men are stealing women's jobs, here.

And yes there will be drives to attract men to those roles but it has to fall within the law. And then of course, there is the Nordic gender paradox.

And again the protected characteristic within the equality act is race not ethnic minorities. You can't discriminate by race in recruitment however desperately you want to. You can 'target' i.e advertise in places that would attract certain groups, etc.
If you want the numbers to balance men presumably should be favoured in recruitment in nursing and primary school teaching.

Iam64 Its shocking to me, to read on here from a male poster that women are taking men’s jobs. Despite working full time, the evidence shows women still do the bulk of child care, domestic work around the house and more.

Yes, women are taking men’s jobs - the job of being a father to his children. A lot of men leave the mum to be both parents, take care of the children, become the sole wage earner in the one-parent family, perform all care for the children, cooking, cleaning, transporting, holidays. A woman should be able to get any job. These women are not just doing the bulk of child care, domestic work around the house - they are doing all of it, including all of the man's side of the parental and financial responsibilities as well.

Sago

So this was in last week’s news; www.linkedin.com/posts/elliot-hammer-37522920_middle-class-white-men-banned-from-public-activity-7469009904591155200-oyye

This is wrong, I believe strongly in meritocracy, it should always be the best person for the job.

Cossy I am amazed you know the voting habits of your friendship group, do you have to fill in an application to join?

Only my husband and children know how I vote.

This appears to be from the Telegraph so I wonder if it is actually true.

Yes, it seems men in general are 'disadvantaged' by an over-abundance of testosterone if the violence breaking out in Belfast and other locations is anything to go by.

Plus, a certain cohort of male society are doubly 'disadvantaged' by having an IQ rating of less than rock bottom. Witness the cavemen setting fire to buses and hero worshipping the likes of Tommy Robinson.

As to education: the Education Act of 1871 suddenly made education accessible to girls and they grabbed the opportunity with both hands, unleashing talents that surprised and even frightened their male counterparts because the chances and advantages that had so far been available only to men, simply because they possessed a willy, were being seized by education-hungry girls.

And they left boys and men at a standing start.

Unfortunately, male society has responded by using brute violence, fists and feet, in response. It's their last resort when their 'superiority' is challenged.

My son is in the Met and as regards to handle sensitive cases where for example women suffering on very sensitive issues (its not hard to imagine cases, is it? he was actually requested by some women in abusive relationships because of his sensitivity and understanding.

So Wyllow would you be happy to wait longer to see a doctor/clinician because your area didn't have the correct 'ethnic' representation?You don't actually want the best candidate for any position appointed you want strict ratios? So if, for example, BAME candidates field stronger for a position than their white counterparts you want some disadvantaged to keep the ratios correct? Wow, I just want the best in every position. If I need surgery I don't want my surgeon selected by race, religion, birth country or skin colour, I want him/her selected on ability alone, but you do you and take your chances....
Just as you don't seem aware I dont want a wholly white male police force actually. Its great to see more women police out on the. streets at night, and they are often so capable. not all the female officers are black, and what do you do if there just aren't the applications to join from non white, non males? Just lower the entry qualifications, accept anyone from the under represented groups, employ 'press gang' tactics? I quite fancy being a surgeon, absolutely zero normal qualification but I am female, have mixed heritage if you go back far enough, and am enthusiastic, fancy me doing surgery on you or yours?

Yes but it was and is really important to get men and women onto the force from ethnic minorities and especially in some cases women - to handle sensitive cases where for example women suffering on very sensitive issues (its not hard to imagine cases, is it?

But not feeling able to speak to a man therefore can be helped, or women in certain cases be supported by someone they trust to give important evidence.

If for a period of time it means white men have to queue for some time then well frankly: so be it for a period. As long as course all are properly qualified and adequate for the job.

And it feels important for me too in a city with 10.3 % of inhabitants not born white Brits that the police I see represent all the people I have come to know too.

I don't think a white male in these circumstances is "disadvantaged". They are having to wait longer is all. I dont want a wholly white male police force actually. Its great to see more women police out on the. streets at night, and they are often so capable.

Trying not to 'out' myself so this will of necessity be vague at points. 20 odd years ago the Metropolitan police decided to be 'inclusive' and promote recruitment across a wider range of ethnicities and especially of women. This resulted in white male candidates who had passed tests and interviews being sidelined and kept waiting for admission. To the extent that they actually ran for the first time a session called '18 weeks and one day' for those people who had been kept waiting for over one year. 18 weeks was the residential training at Hendon and this was one day to keep them interested and waiting. When a candidate known to me actually finally made it to Hendon one of their classmates was a black woman who said her white boyfriend who had been accepted as a candidate 15 months earlier than her was still waiting while she had been 'fast tracked' after only 4 months because she fitted the 'inclusion' criteria. Definitely at that time to be a white male was a disadvantage. Of course this is only one area, but to deny totally that white males ever experience disadvantage is to deny truth.

I’d like to hear from some white British males on here but sadly there are very few. It would be interesting to hear their views in general on this topic. I really don’t feel qualified to comment on the UK situation but in Australia I don’t think there is a lot of difference between ethnicities these days. Not as it was once.

Iam64

White men have been the power group for hundreds of years. Ww1 and ww2 influenced the class system in the UK, as well as making it increasingly difficult to exclude women from the work place. Then came equal pay and maternity leave.

Its shocking to me, to read on here from a male poster that women are taking men’s jobs. Despite working full time, the evidence shows women still do the bulk of child care, domestic work around the house and more.

I’m another with no Reform supporters in my family and friendship group - despite being a northerner 🙈. We aren’t all daft.

Incidentally, I know how all family and friends vote,

Thank you Iam, I was too tired to put tougher a similar post.

and of course we need to include what some men do when they blame their troubles on the women they live with because of this "what been taken away" from us mentality. 🙄

Luckygirl3

I think it starts in the education system which undoubtedly favours girls, who are better able to sit and concentrate than boys. Big generalisation of course, but this is what I have observed.

School represents a child's first experience of the British "system" that they experience and if that is frustrating then it sets up a negative expectation.

The rigid teaching to the test mentality that came with Gove is hugely disadvantageous to boys.

Girls used to out-perform boys in school but not in exams. So Keith Joseph introduced GCSEs in 1980s which allowed a percentage of coursework, which boosted girls' grades. Gove dragged exams (for 16 and 18 yr olds) back into the 1960s, hence boosting boys.

I would just challenge that via the equality act. That happened recently with a consultancy firm Dh applied for, they said they favoured female applicants ( not a 'protected' position where you could specify that) they caved immediately when challenged and were very anxious about the repercussions. The thing about the equality act is the protected characteristic is sex not 'female', so it covers discrimination against men. There is a solicitor in the comments raising concerns.

I agree with your post MOnica except in my experience it’s not just northern ‘working class’ white men and part of their resentment is fear of change, I see it here in Hampshire. Many trades people are in families where the father, grandfather and various other relatives have the same trade. They feel threatened that this traditional route in life may change from others not ‘like’ them, entering ‘their space’. They are also those on 0 hours contracts and minimum wages.
We saw it with Brexit, the perceived threat then was those workers from Europe, Poland, Romania and others. White, but foreign, particularly as many worked harder and longer than the British.
Reform, in saying they’ll stop the immigrants coming into the UK isn’t talking to or about those in a middle class profession, university educated, probably like the majority of the families on GN. They are perceived to be talking about ‘the workers’, those who think Farage is a good bloke because he likes a pint. Very unlike the image of most MP’s in the House of Commons.
As this socioeconomic group make up nearly 50% of the working population and if they’re inclined to vote Reform, then I’m worried.

Sago

So this was in last week’s news; www.linkedin.com/posts/elliot-hammer-37522920_middle-class-white-men-banned-from-public-activity-7469009904591155200-oyye

This is wrong, I believe strongly in meritocracy, it should always be the best person for the job.

Cossy I am amazed you know the voting habits of your friendship group, do you have to fill in an application to join?

Only my husband and children know how I vote.

This is a six week programme designed to give members of under-represented groups the training to put them on a level footing with other applicants. If you want the best candidate, then it makes sense to make sure they are all starting from the same point.

White men have been the power group for hundreds of years. Ww1 and ww2 influenced the class system in the UK, as well as making it increasingly difficult to exclude women from the work place. Then came equal pay and maternity leave.

Its shocking to me, to read on here from a male poster that women are taking men’s jobs. Despite working full time, the evidence shows women still do the bulk of child care, domestic work around the house and more.

I’m another with no Reform supporters in my family and friendship group - despite being a northerner 🙈. We aren’t all daft.

Incidentally, I know how all family and friends vote,

Fallingstar, totally agree.

Tuliptree

In my friendship group we all know how each other votes and politics is frequently discussed. Why on earth would it be secret? Unless we were ashamed?

We also discuss politics but not how we vote.

I think we are looking at a generic problem. When one group of people have held a dominant position in a society, of any kind, they feel under threat and diminished by having to give up some of their power to another group claiming. Look how resentful colonial countries, like the UK were when colonies first started demanding their independence.

I think we also need to look at which men are supporting Reform. They are, mainly, northern and from social demographic groups C &D. men wh feel they have been left behind, higher unemployment, traditional industries, where they have worked in skilled or unskilled jobs, nor has social change caught on as it is in the more cosmopolitan south.

These men are scared of 'wokery' in any terms and feel totally disengaged from what happens n London. Reform appeals to them because it supports views they have secretly held, offers solutions they feel comfortable with.

I do not support Reform in any way, but I understand where it is coming from and I understand why those who vote from them do so.

It is unfortunate that the leader of Reform is that loud mouthed braggart, Nigel Farage. I think had it had a leader like Zac Polanski, himself a deeply flawed person, we would al take REform more seriously.

What we must do is treat the party, its views and its voters with respect. Current attitudes of those who consider themselves the cogniscenti, so superior to those horny handed sons of toil, do much to help Reform and help it gather supporters.

I think white boys from disadvantaged backgrounds fare a lot less well than white boys from middle class backgrounds and boys from immigrant backgrounds whose parents are extremely aspirational.
This is more down to disasterous economic policies over the past few decades made by governments from both sides of the political divide. And not down to other groups being prioritised.
It is also the case that black boys from disadvantaged backgrounds do particularly poorly educationally and in obtaining jobs.
I think blaming it on colour detracts from where the blame should rest, squarely in Westminster.

Deedaa

My middle grandson is having a great time at an all boys state grammar school. Many of the boys are Indian or Chinese and come from families who are very focused on education and they are mostly high achievers. The school is also very keen on sports - and the sports are very competitive, which my grandson loves. When I spent a day there I found myself thinking how nice it was not having any girls messing things up. He does mix with a lot of girls at his drama classes at the weekend,

To be honest, I doubt if the boys who feel "left behind" in today's society are educated at grammar schools, all of whose pupils are high achievers.