From sinner to saint, quits a transformation.

MawsRosie

Jonathan

Oh here we go.

M0nica

What a nasty lot of responses. Yes, of course, people can behave really badly and realise later what they were and change.

Isn't the whole story of St Pauls conversion on the road to Damascus, just such a story? he was persecuting christians , had his conversion moment, and went on to lead them and die for his religion.

Being educated and articulate didn't stop Jonathan Aitken going to prison and serving time. I think that experience was his road to Damascus. He may well have faced up to what he did to his daughter and shown his sorrow and rebuilt his relationship with her. Since then he has tried to live a good life. Why shouldn't he.

People like Jeffrey Donaldson?

I suppose it is similar to the Peter Morrell case, in terms of the damage to people, the dishonesty, the covering up, etc.

MawsRosie

Why do so many people get this name wrong?

Who cares?

Why do so many people get this name wrong?

Jonathan

Christians go off ‘hate the sin but love the sinner’ apparently so 🤷‍♀️

I’m a Humanist.
I’d go by ‘actions speak louder than words’. He tried to rope his then 18 year old daughter into perjury which h ‘regrets’. Yeh right.

His first wife divorced him before the trial so that she didn’t have to testify in Court. Convenient eh? Nice and tidy as they are still friends.

Sounds like a lot of covering up was attempted. I’d not trust him as far as I could throw him. Even now when he’s 83.

fancythat

MissAdventure

As a non christian, who would I need redemption from?

God

Ok, so why would I need redemption from someone I don't believe even exists?

MissAdventure

So is this man trying his best?
Paying back what he owes?
Working hard to do so?

No idea.

What would anyone consider as redemption for their own wrongdoings?

To say sorry to God, and believe that Jesus was raised from the dead.

After that, 10.27am post

MissAdventure

As a non christian, who would I need redemption from?

God

Yes ViceVersa spot on - the two recent Peter Murrell threads are good examples.

ronib

Must be amazing to be such perfect people to stand in judgement like this. I guess it’s proving superiority… or not?

What's superiority got to do with it? We all judge people - whether you care to admit it or not. Is everyone capable of redemption? No, I don't think some are.

fancythat

Magenta8

Would it be possible for Andrew MW to redeem himself?

Definitely.

but unlikely

As a non christian, who would I need redemption from?

ronib

Must be amazing to be such perfect people to stand in judgement like this. I guess it’s proving superiority… or not?

Makes you wonder doesn't it.

Has JA actually asked for redemption or to be pardoned?

What would anyone consider as redemption for their own wrongdoings?

Sago - is that a ( very poor and weak) attempt at sarcasm.

MissAdventure

So is this man trying his best?
Paying back what he owes?
Working hard to do so?

If he were, there would be numerous interviews in the press about this. No good deed would have gone unpublicised imo.

Tuliptree

Here’s a way to measure redemption. When he was declared bankrupt, he owed £1.5 in legal fees. I’d be interested to see how much of his bankruptcy debts he ever tried to repay. I know he didn’t have to, but I have read of bankrupts who worked hard for years to pay back their debts because they felt so ashamed of how they’d caused financial suffering to others.. I actually think we accept bankruptcy as ‘one of those things’ far too easily in this country. Real redemption needs measuring in far more than oh look at me I found god and do a few hours voluntary work in prisons

I guess you’re not hurriedly typing this before the 11.00 am service.

ronib

Must be amazing to be such perfect people to stand in judgement like this. I guess it’s proving superiority… or not?

Being extremely sceptical of the sincerity of someone’s redemption is a judgement I’ve made. Yes. It does not mean I think I’m perfect or superior. However I think that he had the sheer brass neck to sue for libel when he absolutely knew he would be committing perjury and perverting the course of justice and then setting up a situation where his wife and daughter could have done the same speaks volumes about the man. Yes I stand in judgement on that. Whether or not he’s redeemed doesn’t lessen the gravity of that behaviour.

So is this man trying his best?
Paying back what he owes?
Working hard to do so?

^ Real redemption needs measuring in far more than oh look at me I found god and do a few hours voluntary work in prison^

Not quite.

If he is saved, he is saved. [unless a person turns their back on God at some point afterwards].

After being saved, a person is supposed to try their best in life.
Again, that is Jesus's decision and not mine, as to how a person has behaved after being saved.

I'm perfect enough not to be imprisoned for my crimes, yes.
Superior though, not at all.
I'm just glad I don't need to wrestle with issues such as the possible redemption of the pieces of excrement that tortured baby Preston to death.

Must be amazing to be such perfect people to stand in judgement like this. I guess it’s proving superiority… or not?

Here’s a way to measure redemption. When he was declared bankrupt, he owed £1.5 in legal fees. I’d be interested to see how much of his bankruptcy debts he ever tried to repay. I know he didn’t have to, but I have read of bankrupts who worked hard for years to pay back their debts because they felt so ashamed of how they’d caused financial suffering to others.. I actually think we accept bankruptcy as ‘one of those things’ far too easily in this country. Real redemption needs measuring in far more than oh look at me I found god and do a few hours voluntary work in prisons