From sinner to saint, quits a transformation.

Is an Anglican priest a saint? ... not the ones I have known!

You can most certainly go from sinner to saved.

I dont call anyone a saint.
That is for Jesus to decide.

Well it’s definitely easier if you’re well connected. If you’re educated and articulate it’s easier to convince people as well. I thought it was unforgivable how he got his young daughters to lie for him.

“he broke my poor Carol’s heart”

What a nasty lot of responses. Yes, of course, people can behave really badly and realise later what they were and change.

Isn't the whole story of St Pauls conversion on the road to Damascus, just such a story? he was persecuting christians , had his conversion moment, and went on to lead them and die for his religion.

Being educated and articulate didn't stop Jonathan Aitken going to prison and serving time. I think that experience was his road to Damascus. He may well have faced up to what he did to his daughter and shown his sorrow and rebuilt his relationship with her. Since then he has tried to live a good life. Why shouldn't he.

Yes, I believe in redemption in it's broadest sense. I'm not religious but I certainly believe that humans have the capacity to change for the better and that no-one should be written off because of past behaviour.

He had it easy because of his connections. I think he’s manipulative and clever and saw a way to apparently redeem himself so he could get back into the gilded entitled life he’d always enjoyed. Look at the roles he’s had in the C of E . Hardly Profumo is he? Paula Vennels had a lay role in the C of E didn’t she?

M0nica’s example of how people can change is a good one. St Paul did not ask for forgiveness for his wrong doing. He changed his way of life.

I don’t know if he was able to rebuild his relationships. I don’t know if any who were hurt by him can forgive him.

I don’t suppose JA has forgotten what he did, but that doesn’t mean he can’t decide to do better.

Some things happening today are unforgivable, but maybe John 8:7 is worth remembering.

Tuliptree

He had it easy because of his connections. I think he’s manipulative and clever and saw a way to apparently redeem himself so he could get back into the gilded entitled life he’d always enjoyed. Look at the roles he’s had in the C of E . Hardly Profumo is he? Paula Vennels had a lay role in the C of E didn’t she?

I actually believe his background went against him.

He does not seem to living a gilded life anymore.

I don’t believe being a prison Chaplain is a glamorous role.

Paula Vennells was a lay preacher at the time of her deception there is a huge difference.

M0nica’s example of how people can change is a good one. St Paul did not ask for forgiveness for his wrong doing. He changed his way of life.

I agree and disagree.

Part of being saved is saying sorry to God.
Agree with the rest of what was said.

If i believed thos man could be redeemed, it means i would also have to believe thos guilty of far more repulsive, sick crimes could also be.
I'd rather err on the side of caution.

MissAdventure

If i believed thos man could be redeemed, it means i would also have to believe thos guilty of far more repulsive, sick crimes could also be.
I'd rather err on the side of caution.

Why shouldn't they? But if people repent they need to show that by their actions. Jonathan Aitken has shown that.

Lots of people say they are sorry when caught out, but do nothing to show that sorrow.

Even someone who has committed heinous crimes can repent. One way of showing that would be to accept that any punishment they received is justified and serving it without complaint. There are prisoner who have done that and then turned their skills and abilities to supporting and helping fellow prisoners. I think this is essentially what happened to Aitken.

I think all criminals can be redeemed in a Christian sense but they have to confess and repent of those sins and accept the punishment. The dying thief was forgiven by Christ because he repented and asked for forgiveness so that ‘none need despair but equally that none may presume’ The thief who did not repent was not forgiven.

Would it be possible for Andrew MW to redeem himself?

Given he was bankrupt when he went to prison, he is certainly living a gilded life. Someone paid for him to study at Oxford, he married very well again and lives in an upmarket mansion block in London. He does a few hours a week as a prison chaplain . Profumo scrubbed floors and kept completely out of any limelight. I gave the example of PV because being ordained in the Cof E seems a pretty low bar if you know the right people.

I don't believe its possible to commit the most vile crimes and have a change of heart.
Perhaps from a christian perspective, but I'm not a christian.

What does redeem mean to you. I don’t think of redeeming as my role.
I can’t excuse some of the things that are happening today.
I wouldn’t say that anyone should be released from the punishment that has been meted out for their crimes because they turn over a new leaf whilst in prison.

Who knows whether their change of heart is genuine or simply because they’re unhappy with the punishment.
But can anyone deny them the right to regret what they’ve done and decide to do better in future?

Magenta8

Would it be possible for Andrew MW to redeem himself?

Definitely.

Magenta8

Would it be possible for Andrew MW to redeem himself?

The million dollar question.

When you are in the public eye and your late Mother was the head of the C of E you have let a lot of people down.

His arrogance is on a similar scale to Aitkens pre his conviction.

I am sure that if AMW was to ever have to face a jury he would kill himself.

I would love to say he is serving a kind of prison sentence holed away in his Norfolk home but I bet he is not!

Here’s a way to measure redemption. When he was declared bankrupt, he owed £1.5 in legal fees. I’d be interested to see how much of his bankruptcy debts he ever tried to repay. I know he didn’t have to, but I have read of bankrupts who worked hard for years to pay back their debts because they felt so ashamed of how they’d caused financial suffering to others.. I actually think we accept bankruptcy as ‘one of those things’ far too easily in this country. Real redemption needs measuring in far more than oh look at me I found god and do a few hours voluntary work in prisons

Must be amazing to be such perfect people to stand in judgement like this. I guess it’s proving superiority… or not?

I'm perfect enough not to be imprisoned for my crimes, yes.
Superior though, not at all.
I'm just glad I don't need to wrestle with issues such as the possible redemption of the pieces of excrement that tortured baby Preston to death.

^ Real redemption needs measuring in far more than oh look at me I found god and do a few hours voluntary work in prison^

Not quite.

If he is saved, he is saved. [unless a person turns their back on God at some point afterwards].

After being saved, a person is supposed to try their best in life.
Again, that is Jesus's decision and not mine, as to how a person has behaved after being saved.

So is this man trying his best?
Paying back what he owes?
Working hard to do so?