The Left is conspiring with extremists in the disappearance of British women.

One of those involved in the gender debate has starteda facility where Muslim women from anywhere in the world can write anonymously to her about their experiences, the stories are awful.

A left wing conspiracy? Really? What tosh! Orthodox Jews worship separately, Catholics did until the mid 20thC and there's been a cultural separation of the sexes and covering the head etc throughout history in many different countries and religions. A friend went to a Saudi wedding as the only non Muslim. She had a brilliant time celebrating with the women who insisted she did everything they did. She said she'd never felt more glamorous or free to let her hair down. These stereotypes of down trodden women are, in many Muslim households, exactly that, stereotypes. There are down trodden women in every culture and strata of society and most are not Muslim.

Vintagewhine

A left wing conspiracy? Really? What tosh! Orthodox Jews worship separately, Catholics did until the mid 20thC and there's been a cultural separation of the sexes and covering the head etc throughout history in many different countries and religions. A friend went to a Saudi wedding as the only non Muslim. She had a brilliant time celebrating with the women who insisted she did everything they did. She said she'd never felt more glamorous or free to let her hair down. These stereotypes of down trodden women are, in many Muslim households, exactly that, stereotypes. There are down trodden women in every culture and strata of society and most are not Muslim.

You sound very certain of your post!

The idea that the niqab is freedom is the same school of thought that prostitution is empowering. I wouldnt call that train of thought as leftwing thinking but it is 'progressive' thinking.

It is a subject I am going to look into more.
If I could, I would help the muslim women who wanted help.

BlueBelle

Perhaps we should concentrate on vicars and priest who abuse children in our own churches !! Now there’s a thought

I think we should start by dealing with the abusers in the home. They are far more prolific. Abusive men, regardless of whether they profess a religion will gravitat to professions that give trusted access to children. Religious groups, like teaching offers such opportunities.

That's interesting Galaxy.
What percentage, of the overall population of women in those situations, is asking for help?

Good point M0nica, but beware Maremia will likely ask you, like she asked me, if you're minimising vicar or priest abuse.

I’d say many of these oppressed women are much too scared of the consequences should they complain. Majority in fact. I don’t have any statistics for this, before the obsessive ones here ask, but I just know from some of these people I have come across in my working life and elsewhere. Take it or leave it but it is true as far as I am concerned.

I don't think it is a racial issue, I think it's a woman issue. I do not want to see hard fought for and long held freedoms diluted or dispensed with on the altar of thinly disguised misogyny as diversification.

I don't want to see the clock turned back in appeasement to factions who want women to be once more invisible and silent to gain block votes.

I don't want rapists and child abusers, whatever their creed or colour, hiding behind institutions protecting institutions such as the Catholic & Anglican churches, rather than being severely punished for their crimes.

As posters have rightly pointed out, there are many, many abusive, patriarchal belief systems - some hidden in their demands for control over women, some extremely visible and vocal to the extent of demanding the women of their belief system actually having to become IN-visible, UN-idividual, just an obedient amorphous mass, to facilitate their power over them. It's these demands, the culture of cover up being so visible, which makes it so "othering" not women's vocalised objections to this as a norm.

Galaxy

The idea that the niqab is freedom is the same school of thought that prostitution is empowering. I wouldnt call that train of thought as leftwing thinking but it is 'progressive' thinking.

I would call it ‘regressive’ rather than ‘progressive’, but probably without the speech marks.

Again I will emphasize that women wearing full body and face coverings in the UK are a very very small minority. Is concerning that they do this but as I have said before forcing them to remove it is also a form of bullying with regard to what they wear.
The only solution imho is to leave it to Muslim women’s groups in the UK who will help these women if they ask for it, or suppose that the next generation will not be as accepting of wearing a full body and face covering.

I disagree, I think we as a society make it very clear that this is not a value of our society and it goes against our values.
It doesn't just impact the women involved it impacts all women.
What message would it give if the archbishop was photographed with someone wearing a t shirt saying women belong in the kitchen, ir other sentiments. It is the same.

Vintagewhine

A left wing conspiracy? Really? What tosh! Orthodox Jews worship separately, Catholics did until the mid 20thC and there's been a cultural separation of the sexes and covering the head etc throughout history in many different countries and religions. A friend went to a Saudi wedding as the only non Muslim. She had a brilliant time celebrating with the women who insisted she did everything they did. She said she'd never felt more glamorous or free to let her hair down. These stereotypes of down trodden women are, in many Muslim households, exactly that, stereotypes. There are down trodden women in every culture and strata of society and most are not Muslim.

Don’t you know the rules?

If it’s shocking, unpleasant, unacceptable or horrible, someone, somewhere will find a reason to blame it on the “left”.

Never mind the rise in “traditional” wives, in both the USA and the UK, combined with a very few Christian churches who practice and encourage something very similar!

Honestly, air the stories, they need to heard, but don’t “accuse the Left” being behind these actions.

Fallingstar

Again I will emphasize that women wearing full body and face coverings in the UK are a very very small minority. Is concerning that they do this but as I have said before forcing them to remove it is also a form of bullying with regard to what they wear.
The only solution imho is to leave it to Muslim women’s groups in the UK who will help these women if they ask for it, or suppose that the next generation will not be as accepting of wearing a full body and face covering.

👍👍👏👏

Whatever women wear, or don’t wear, in any faith or no faith, is entirely ok with me, so long as it’s their choice.

Nannee49

I don't think it is a racial issue, I think it's a woman issue. I do not want to see hard fought for and long held freedoms diluted or dispensed with on the altar of thinly disguised misogyny as diversification.

I don't want to see the clock turned back in appeasement to factions who want women to be once more invisible and silent to gain block votes.

I don't want rapists and child abusers, whatever their creed or colour, hiding behind institutions protecting institutions such as the Catholic & Anglican churches, rather than being severely punished for their crimes.

As posters have rightly pointed out, there are many, many abusive, patriarchal belief systems - some hidden in their demands for control over women, some extremely visible and vocal to the extent of demanding the women of their belief system actually having to become IN-visible, UN-idividual, just an obedient amorphous mass, to facilitate their power over them. It's these demands, the culture of cover up being so visible, which makes it so "othering" not women's vocalised objections to this as a norm.

👏👏👏👏

BlueBelle

Perhaps we should concentrate on vicars and priest who abuse children in our own churches !! Now there’s a thought

If you wish to start a thread on this subject then go ahead but don’t hijack this thread with your virtue.

Not denying though are you Rosie?

Cossy

Vintagewhine

A left wing conspiracy? Really? What tosh! Orthodox Jews worship separately, Catholics did until the mid 20thC and there's been a cultural separation of the sexes and covering the head etc throughout history in many different countries and religions. A friend went to a Saudi wedding as the only non Muslim. She had a brilliant time celebrating with the women who insisted she did everything they did. She said she'd never felt more glamorous or free to let her hair down. These stereotypes of down trodden women are, in many Muslim households, exactly that, stereotypes. There are down trodden women in every culture and strata of society and most are not Muslim.

Don’t you know the rules?

If it’s shocking, unpleasant, unacceptable or horrible, someone, somewhere will find a reason to blame it on the “left”.

Never mind the rise in “traditional” wives, in both the USA and the UK, combined with a very few Christian churches who practice and encourage something very similar!

Honestly, air the stories, they need to heard, but don’t “accuse the Left” being behind these actions.

Actually, if it’s considered shocking, unpleasant, unacceptable or horrible it’s far more likely to be blamed on the ‘right’ these days, usually with the prefix ‘far’.😁

Now that comment intrigued me Oreo, so I looked it up.
Apparently, how you feel about how 'blame' is given, to either Left or Right, depends on your own ideological perspective.

In very many case I would expect that outcome Maremia but there are people who can consider their own political side to be at fault now and then.
It’s also more fashionable now to call every Tory voter far right.
😂

fancythat

It is a subject I am going to look into more.
If I could, I would help the muslim women who wanted help.

That’s very noble.

Many women who are not Muslim’s and live in our country do need help too.

Galaxy

I disagree, I think we as a society make it very clear that this is not a value of our society and it goes against our values.
It doesn't just impact the women involved it impacts all women.
What message would it give if the archbishop was photographed with someone wearing a t shirt saying women belong in the kitchen, ir other sentiments. It is the same.

It’s not the same. If the chief imam wore such a garment there would be parallels, but that’s not what we are talking about. Individual women are covering. They are not being instructed to do so by religious leaders - only some women, from particular sects or places of origin do it.

If that is because their men are insisting then IMO it is wrong. I am sure that anyone who has travelled to Muslim countries will have seen men escorting several black-covered women.

I once saw a male driver with six burkha-clad women in the back of an open- topped pick- up truck, and the women were all facing outwards. They couldn’t even communicate with one another with their eyes. I am in no way saying that this is right - it has stayed with me for a decade or more.

What I am saying is that if a woman chooses to cover up it is not for those of us who don’t to tell her not to. We might not understand or approve of her decision, but if the alternative is that she wouldn’t leave the house, our disapproval will not break that cycle.

I once taught a student who wore a niqab-style covering. In lectures, only her eyes were visible. When she came to my office she would drop the ‘hood’ and I could see her hair and face, and stayed like that if other women joined us. If a male colleague came in, she might, depending on his age, pull it up to cover her hair, but leave her face exposed, hijab-style. If a male student or younger colleague came in she pulled the face covering across and attached it with a loop, so she was fully covered. All of this was to make her feel more comfortable.

Another wore a hijab some days and not others. I once asked her why, and she said it depended on whether it was a ‘bad hair day’ or not.

We can’t know why others do what they doing. We can let it be known that there are alternatives, but I don’t know how we can insist on behaviour change without denying civil liberties and risking further restrictions such as women being confined to the home.

What kind of job or profession is that woman going to be able to have I wonder.
A headscarf type covering is fine but not being muffled up the minute a man appears.
No, I agree with Galaxy on this.

I agree Doodledog.
Give whatever help we can, when asked for, and there are ways of doing this.
But, do not impose our customs on others.