How Christian is your Christmas?

We celebrate Yule, the Winter Solstice, a festival hi-jacked just as a good number of others were hi-jacked. Easter for example.

escaped

You mean like this?

Yes!
(Sorry, only just seen your post.)

I undid him and tried again but it still looks like a pig.

Fleurpepper

LaCrepescule

For me, Christmas is about the birth of Christ. I’m not particularly religious but it saddens me that this message is all but lost.

I understand, but it’s well known that it was a date arbitrarily selected by the church authorities, in conjunction with the incorporation of the Pagan winter solstice festival of Saturnalia into the Christian calendar, during the early 4th century.

This was done at the behest of Roman Emperor Constantine as a means of bringing the many Pagans in the then Roman Empire, into Christianity, as a means of strengthening the empire under one religion. Since there were no records of who Jesus was or when he was born, December 25th, immediately after the end of Saturnalia, was as good a date as any to pick.

Large numbers of the public mightn’t be aware of this, after all, the Christian church doesn’t advertise the fact, but all biblical scholars have long known it.

it was a date arbitrarily selected by the church authorities, in conjunction with the incorporation of the Pagan winter solstice festival of Saturnalia into the Christian calendar, during the early 4th century.

 This was done at the behest of Roman Emperor Constantine

There is no evidence of Constantine giving any command for Saturnalia to be incorporated into the Christian calendar. Saturnalia, which was not a winter solstice festival, continued to be celebrated alongside what we now call Christmas for many years after the Roman Empire’s conversion to Christianity.
talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-is-christmas-really/

Selection of the date of Christmas:

//the reasoning was actually mainly purely Christian. The idea that Jesus was executed on the same day as his conception means he was thought to have died on March 25, which means his birth must be nine months later on … Dec 25.//
- Atheist historian Tim O’Neill
historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/

This reasoning was recorded by Sextus Julius Africanus in 221 AD, 85 years before Constantine began his reign.

Fleurpepper

LaCrepescule

For me, Christmas is about the birth of Christ. I’m not particularly religious but it saddens me that this message is all but lost.

I understand, but it’s well known that it was a date arbitrarily selected by the church authorities, in conjunction with the incorporation of the Pagan winter solstice festival of Saturnalia into the Christian calendar, during the early 4th century.

This was done at the behest of Roman Emperor Constantine as a means of bringing the many Pagans in the then Roman Empire, into Christianity, as a means of strengthening the empire under one religion. Since there were no records of who Jesus was or when he was born, December 25th, immediately after the end of Saturnalia, was as good a date as any to pick.

Large numbers of the public mightn’t be aware of this, after all, the Christian church doesn’t advertise the fact, but all biblical scholars have long known it.

Since there were no records of who Jesus was

This is not the case. This is some of what would still be known about Jesus if all the New Testament books had ceased to exist early on:

(Summaries by J Warner Wallace in ‘Is There Any Evidence For Jesus Outside the Bible?’
coldcasechristianity.com/writings/is-there-any-evidence-for-jesus-outside-the-bible/)

Thallus (52 AD)
//Jesus lived, He was crucified, and there was an earthquake and darkness at the point of His crucifixion.//

Tacitus (56-120 AD)
//Jesus lived in Judea, was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and had followers who were persecuted for their faith in Christ.//

Mara Bar-Serapion (70 AD)
//He was a wise and influential man who died for His beliefs. The Jewish leadership was somehow responsible for Jesus’ death. Jesus’ followers adopted His beliefs and lived their lives accordingly.//

Phlegon (80-140 AD)
//Jesus had the ability to accurately predict the future, was crucified under the reign of Tiberius Caesar and demonstrated His wounds after he was resurrected.//

Pliny the Younger (61-113 AD)
//the first Christians believed Jesus was God, the first Christians upheld a high moral code, and these early followers met regularly to worship Jesus.//

Suetonius (69-140 AD)
//Jesus’ followers were committed to their belief Jesus was God and withstood the torment and punishment of the Roman Empire. Jesus had a curious and immediate impact on His followers, empowering them to die courageously for what they knew to be true.//

Lucian of Samosata (115-200 AD)
//Jesus taught about repentance and about the family of God. These teachings were quickly adopted by Jesus’ followers and exhibited to the world around them.//

Celsus (175 AD)
//Jesus had an earthly father who was a carpenter, possessed unusual magical powers and claimed to be God.//

Josephus (37-101 AD)
//Jesus lived in Palestine, was a wise man and a teacher, worked amazing deeds, was accused by the Jews, crucified under Pilate and had followers called Christians.//

Your nativity scene is fantastic Jocork.

I think it is people as individuals and communities that shape winter festivities. even if not exact to the day - and moving calendars( Julian to Gregorian and other such moves can lead to changing dates for given events and then date being more important to event.

Most religions are syncretic and at the core of all religions are very similar beliefs and attitudes. But even then different parts of the same religion will be shaped by community values.

Growing up a catholic in England in the 1950s, I used to be so glad that my Irish ancestors had migrated to England. What i read and heard Irish catholicism horified me, but Irish catholicism arose from the crushing of Irish culture, denial of education, barring from the professions by the colonial power - England - that gave their priests, powers of leadership and protection.

Look at modern religions like Communism or Socialism and how differently countries like China, North Korea, and the late Yugoslavia interpreted it or compare Iranian or Taliban interpretations of Islam with those of most muslims in North Africa.

Yes, I had read your post, M0nica. I think we are addressing slightly different points? You are saying that all cultures inevitably have a winter festival, and if we didn’t have Christmas we would have another one? I am saying that Christmas most probably did not hijack the specific date or customs of any given festival, such as the Roman Saturnalia or the Norse Yule. That can be true even if all, or most, cultures have a winter festival.

There does not seem to be much reliable information - with sources - online about a Celtic winter festival. According to a couple of websites the four Celtic festivals were held on 1 May, 1 November, 1 February and 1 August - not at midwinter.
www.roman-britain.co.uk/the-celts-and-celtic-life/celtic-seasonal-festivals/

Interesting points from the professional historian blog post I linked to, by Spencer McDaniel:

//Saturnalia was not celebrated on December 25th.//
It was originally celebrated on 17 December, and at later periods for longer, but it was always over on 23 December.

//Saturnalia was not a celebration of the winter solstice.//
It was a religious holiday in honour of the god Saturnus.

//most people in the ancient world did not have any kind of winter solstice festival.//

//people continued celebrating Saturnalia alongside Christmas long after the Roman Empire’s conversion to Christianity.//

'Just How Pagan Is Christmas Really?'
talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-is-christmas-really/

Skye17 Behind all the midwinter festivals lies the winter solstice. The shortest day, followed by one that is longer and confirms the return of spring and regrowth.

All your references are to things that happened thousands. if not millions of years after earliest man first greeted with relief the first signs that the sun, without which no life was possible, was going to return and the food growing season would return.

I refer you to my post, page 5 Wed 20-Nov-24 19:28:24

I like to have a Christian Christmas as I no longer prepare the traditional dinner and spend too much time in the kitchen trying to please everyone .I'm spending part of it with atheist friends though I think that the mother is a lapsed Catholic .
I've been making Christmas decorations for our church and more to do today .

Fleurpepper

Not very- as we are not religious. Christmas was highjacked from Celtic culture, and as we live on an ancient Celtic site, this is more what I feel personally. We do have a tree, nothing Christian about this however, as said above.

Meloni in Italy has just passed a Law forcing all schools to have a traditional Nativity Scene in all schools. Does she realise Joseph and mary looked quite dark. The she was an unmarried mother- and what about the wise men?

It most probably wasn’t hijacked from Celtic, or other, culture.

Atheist historian Tim O’Neill refutes this idea on his blog, History for Atheists.
'Pagan Christmas'
historyforatheists.com/2020/12/pagan-christmas/

Excerpt:

//Classics scholars Peter Gainsford and Spencer Alexander McDaniel have both written several articles showing how almost all of the “pagan Christmas” claims … are mostly nonsense. …
'Just How Pagan is Christmas Really?'
talesoftimesforgotten.com/2019/12/08/just-how-pagan-is-christmas-really/

Given that the claim that Christmas is essentially just the Roman festival of Saturnalia rebadged, McDaniel has recently added another useful article detailing what we know about Saturnalia and highlighting that it had little influence on Christmas:
'How Was Saturnalia Celebrated in Ancient Rome?'
talesoftimesforgotten.com/2020/12/18/how-was-saturnalia-celebrated-in-ancient-rome/

This X/Twitter thread gives a shorter version:
'The annual "Christmas IS pagan" festival...'
x.com/timoneill007/status/1599181223397847040?s=46&t=VdUfE0uEBG3i5K_HhzIGqw

Tim O’Neill also writes this answer to a comment on his X thread:

//Q. How can I as a layperson know which blog or site is valid and which are just pop history (since you didn't link to an academic journal)?

A. Sources. The crappy pop history articles make assertions but don't back them up with reference to primary source material [writings from the time in question] that substantiates their claims and supports their arguments. The articles l've linked to do that.//

madalene

I did actually say that somehow I don’t think Yvette Cooper would have said that and you acknowledged that!

I don’t do X/Twitter or whatever it likes to call itself. I never have, despite being urged on this very platform on more than one occasion that I could learn something there. That was some time ago. My opinion of X/Twitter couldn’t be published and so I’ll simply say that I have no time for it.

I was confirming your disbelief that YC would have said anything so archly provocative (and frankly, stupid)!

The way it was posted originally on here - slipped in like it were a truth, is what I was condemning.

As for X/Twitter, I did, but no longer do, post on or read it. I think actually I've learned far more on GN than I ever did on Twitter - about all kinds of things!

I did actually say that somehow I don’t think Yvette Cooper would have said that and you acknowledged that!

I don’t do X/Twitter or whatever it likes to call itself. I never have, despite being urged on this very platform on more than one occasion that I could learn something there. That was some time ago. My opinion of X/Twitter couldn’t be published and so I’ll simply say that I have no time for it.

madalene

It seems unlikely to me. Is it the person replying who actually said it?
DH has just asked if that means anyone who puts lights outside their house is racist, or is it just a tree?

Somehow I don’t think Yvette Cooper would have said that.

Somehow I don’t think Yvette Cooper would have said that.

She didn't.

"Fact Check" explains.

A screenshot has been shared across the social media platform X, formerly Twitter, purporting to show an opinion article written by Yvette Cooper, headlined: “People who have Christmas trees in their living room may be far right. Please be vigilant as the festive season approaches.”

Evaluation

The screenshot is fake. Although it matches the correct typeface and the same byline image of Ms Cooper as used by The Guardian, there is no evidence it was ever published online. The image was first distributed by a social media user who has previously posted a different fake editorial article

... X, formerly Twitter...

It is really worrying that people are so ready to believe what they read on social media sites - don't bother to check the veracity of it, and further spread the misinformation until it gathers speed and then causes serious trouble.

Like the recent riots which were the result of exactly the same kind of fake news being spread around.

It’s been all about Jesus for me at Christmas since I became a Christian over 30 years ago. The Christmas story just gets more significant to me as the years go by.

I sing in the choir at our church’s carol service and go to church on Christmas morning.

We are regular church going Catholics, so Christ is part of my daily life and we erect a very old, handmade crib (over 50 years old) during advent along with attendance at advent and Christmas services and masses. None of my children however practice their faith and live secular lives, believing in the American Santa and the materialism and overindulgence of the season.

Not christian so its not big in our day.Christmas wasn;,t a public holiday when I was wee,my dad worked that day just as he did other days.New year was always the big celebration in Scotland we had all the family round a table at Hogmanay not on christmas day.We certainly never ate turkey or christmas pudding until well into the 1960's and it was Steak pie and trifle at new year,and still is traditional for many.

Christ is definitely central in this family Christmas. To celebrate his birth with family and friends is a wonderful thing for us. We are well aware that the actual date was not accurately recorded but that December 25th is as good a date as any other. Others who prefer to celebrate it as a winter festival are perfectly free to do so and I love to see families getting together. I wouldn't dream of ridiculing their belief and I would always hope that they would respect mine.

I'm afraid I have veered away from the church and organized religion, but am still Christian at heart. I do have a nativity scene in porcelain that in front and centre on my cabinet (no fireplace mantle), so the grandchildren have some understanding of the reason for the celebration.

Although my children were baptized and confirmed in the Catholic church, none of the grandchildren are.

Witz, I don’t remember but I don’t think so.

Allira

grandMattie

I go to all the services - Carol, crib, midnight and definitely the Christmas morning one.
My family always used to go to them and we have all carried on.
Photos of one of my knitted cribs.

Ps Mary, Joseph and Baby Jesus are finished.

My sheep looks more like a pig.

Do post a pic when it’s finished! Is it from a Jean Greenhowe pattern by any chance? I’ve made several of those, but used to sew up as I went along - too daunting a task otherwise!

Maremia

There are so many layers in how to celebrate Christmas. From our own 1950/60s nostalgia, and the magic of Santa. From much earlier, we remember the medieval hyms and traditions with the holly, ivy and decking the halls, and mulled wine. Vikings gave us mistletoe. Further north, the idea of someone coming into the home through a hole in the roof. Romans gave us the date, 25th of December, for Mithras. Winter Soltice promised the return of the sun and hope for the future. Then we have all of the Victorian re-juvination, Christmas trees, crackers, cards. We are so lucky to have the chance now to join in the winter celebrations from other cultures, and their choice to join us in ours.
May you enjoy Christmas in your own individual way.

* Exactly, Maremia!! Thank you for your comment.

Santa and presents both giving them were a big part of my childhood Christmas, but we were never in any doubt that we were celebrating Jesus being born and why God became Man.

To me Christmas is primarily a Christian festival - if others want to celebrate it with no religious content, that is up to them. I would not dream of stopping them, nor of complaining if members of other faiths publicly celebrate their festivals.

When I assuredly would and have complained is if other complain about my way of celebrating Christmas, Easter and Whitsun. Live and let live is a sound principle, also with regards to religion.

Milliedog

@grandMattie ......I just love those knitted figures! Could you possibly send a link to the knitting patterns? TIA.

Sorry, can’t. I was sent the instructions by a WI me,her some years ago!

Spot on as usual MOnica 😀
I’m a humanist but love the carols and Christmas celebrations, but nothing to do with a saviour’s birth for me. I’m glad families come together at this time, but I also feel for those for whom it’s a time of sadness. It’s sad also that it’s such a commercial spend fest, which is what I do dislike.

MOnica.. great minds!