Coronavirus - are older people being treated as expendable?

Any choice is unlikely to be between elderly person and young mother. It will be between elderly person with heart problems and diabetes and younger person also with disabilities.

All I want is to be spoken to as an adult and not patronised and my children told to keep an eye on us and check we are alright. Of course anyone frail and disabled, especially with poor mental powers, needs to be checked on, but that applies regardless of age.

Many older people, even in their 80s and 90s are more than capable of coping with this crisis, modern life etc etc. Of course families will be in touch, in the day to day, week on week basis that they always are. But I am in command of every aspect of my life and do not intened to be talked down to, or even worse, talked over.

anniezzz......how about forget about political point scoring for five minutes?
There will be far more than 50 ventilators in the NHS in the UK, it’s frankly ridiculous to say so.Each hospital will have several, think how many hospitals there are!

Dinha and the relevance to the UK by citing what you think goes on in Italy is...?

Monica your first paragraph, yes, exactly!??
Old people in the UK are not being treated as expendable at all, anyone in need of hospital treatment and ICU will get it regardless of age, it’s sheer panic mongering to say otherwise.

anniezz and since you mention it upthread, did you not see B Johnson on tv at the press briefing today when he said several times about us all looking out for each other and checking on older relatives and neighbours, i.e. all doing our bit to help each other.

You speak for your own family, anniezzz, and don't criticise all British families.

We'll (hopefully) be seeing ours shortly and going out, 3 generations and all will interact.

But perhaps will not hug or kiss!

In brutal biological terms, good old red with blood and clawsome Nature, old people are more expendable than young people. That's just a hard fact. So in that respect I suppose one could say the doomsters and gloomsters and Boris Is Evil brigade could, stretching reality a bit, be said to be right.

On a personal level, supposing I and one of my offspring were to contract the disease and there was only treatment for one of us, I would not hesitate to say they should have the treatment. In purely practical and biological terms, not emotional ones, they are definitely less expendable than I am.

But we are living in an advanced civilisation with advanced science and health care at our disposal. This doesn't mean we immediately know how to best deal with a new killer virus. It does mean we will do our best and that our government will do its best. They are not picking ideas out of the sky. They are listening to scientists and following what is advised. There is some disagreement about what is the best approach even among scientists. This is because they don't know everything and it's the cost of a free society that they can speak their minds. A price worth paying in my view.

People who think (or speak as if, even if they don't believe it) anyone who disagrees with them is evil are just silly.

"Made weak by time and fate but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield."

That ⬆️ is what we're doing.

Tennyson

Jeremy Hunt has expressed surprise that external visits to care homes are still being allowed. Thinking about it, I agree with him.

A cynical mind might think that some in power here see this virus as a quick and timely way to solve the problems arising from our aged population, by rapidly reducing the number of elderly and chronically ill, and that they don't necessarily want to reduce its impact on that demographic at all!

Care workers have to come and go. They will be more versed in hand hygiene and so forth but I think it's important not to overlook the importance of "external visits" to care home residents.

Perhaos they should be stopped but the old people will lose something very precious in their twilight years if that happens. Health is not just physical.

I agree when it comes to choice my children should be treated before me.

As to the nursing homes the one just up the road from me has stopped all visitors, only the staff are allowed in

It's at present largely coronavirus that causes old people to be expendable. Beware the passive voice!

I certainly don't think older people being treated as expendable and we can do some social distancing for ourselves.

However, people are going to die. It is that sort of virus. People with underlying issues, younger or older, are always at more risk and so, generally, are the elderly. I hope that while governments do their best someone finds a vaccine but no one can make that happen.

I would like to know that oxygen will be available for home use so the legions of former bed blockers can be made comfortable at home.

Jeremy Hunt has expressed surprise that external visits to care homes are still being allowed. Thinking about it, I agree with him.

You are assuming they are. It is true the government haven't made the recommendation to limit visiting but I would be surprised if many homes haven't taken that decision themselves.

MamaCaz I agree with you and it's very shocking to see being said. I keep seeing people quoting Ghandi: the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members. '

lemongrove, how can you say ' anyone in need of hospital treatment and ICU will get it regardless of age'. That is factually incorrect. We just don't have the capacity to treat everyone!

Watch and learn:

mobile.twitter.com/dancingthemind/status/1237360907795091456

Hetty58 May I add that no country has the capacity to treat everyone needing hospital/ICU if they all need it at the same time. They cannot stop us getting this virus at the moment but if they spread out the "load" then more people can be treated.

During this time we will be building up the "herd immunity" which is currently our only hope, towards the 60% of people becoming immune and more research is being done at a very fast pace and with a lot of cooperation between countries.

We need to realise the government would be acting against the health of the majority if they tried to stop it we would simply get it later.

Everyone is already worried about what will happen in China when those in the worst areas are allowed out of their homes. Hopefully, it will be done in small numbers.

Hetty ...I would rather be guided by the science and what our health boffins are saying.
We are not the same as Italy, at the moment they have so many cases they are not coping well.More are dying ( they don’t have a free at point of access healthcare as we do) and they have a vast elderly population, and very crowded towns and cities with so many people living in apartments rather than houses.They also have a more social and ‘hands on’ culture, with different generations often living together.
A country doesn’t need to keep thousands of ICU beds in normal times, just what it generally needs, but NHS executives are already planning to use operating theatres for
ICU beds, for instance.
Trying to keep hospital admissions lower but for a longer spaced out duration is what they are aiming for.
Constantly referring to what Italy is doing/ experiencing isn’t
Necessarily relevant to the UK.

The left wing Guardian? Does anyone believe what they have to say?

It's definitely all a bit scary for us older people. I wouldn't be half as worried if DH and I were considerably younger.

I agree with Gagajo, whilst I have no desire to die anytime soon, I would expect my own children and grandchildren to be treated before me. I sincerely hope that this scenario doesn’t happen but all of us older people have had a life and I’d hate to think I’d been saved and a younger person had not received treatment because of this.

I'm more concerned about my family than myself, although obviously I hope we don't catch it.

I would just like to know exactly how long this virus has been with us and whether it was around previously but not recognised until December.

Patticake me too.

So few ventilators its not true as Mr Trump would put it it is fake news! Dont let media etc make us oldies panic we will soon be useful again in the NHS then we wont be old!