Panorama tonight

notanan2, to me, it suggests that NHS workers are far more aware of risks and much more careful about infection control, proper hand washing and social distancing!

Actually its been said that if you look at the % of the population who work for the NHS
Vs the percentage of Covid deaths that are NHS workers.

NHS workers are under represented. Ie less likely to die of CV than your average man on the street

Which suggests that PPE is working, overall.

An individuals inquest isnt the appropriate forum for a whole system review.

It would be stabbing in the dark at the moment as its a monumental task and will take dedicated groups a long time to review

Correction "we can't get enough"

So the alternative would be if nobody had ever raised the issue of PPE. The public could carry on in ignorance of any problems. A few staff would die and there would be more cross-infection than necessary, but what the hell? The whole country would be pulling together, everybody would trust the government and everything would be fine and dandy.

However, more than a handful of people have claimed that there is a shortage of PPE. Shouldn't that be investigated?

Panorama has always been about short (sometimes controversial) investigations. There's very little of that kind of journalism around. Amelia Gentleman's investigations into the Windrush scandal is an exception and there are a few others. The Telegraph's investigation into MPs' expenses is another.

If such investigations spur people into action - good!

To date, I haven't read that the government has denied anything which was claimed in the programme.

I've read two main lines of defence:

a) There's no problem. Staff have the equipment they need.
b) We tried, but we can't get any.

There's obviously some truth in b), but questions still remain unanswered.

I think that notanan and Glorybee have faith in 'alternative facts'.

I'm intrigued as to why coroners have been advised not to take the provision and standard of PPE into account if conducting an inquest into the death of an NHS worker.

It appears that his rationale rests on a court judgement about the death of a serviceman possibly contributed to by faulty equipment, but we do know, don't we, that one court judgement does not set the law in stone for ever more...

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/29/inquests-nhs-staff-deaths-ppe-shortages

What matters is IS IT TRUE?

The answer to which appears to be YES

Most good lies sit close to the truth.

You can take something that is the exception and paint it as the rule.

Growstuff, the ‘we’ll never know’ comment was in response to the question from MaisieD re the Panorama program.

Yes, we will know Glorybee. The government, NHS and any other vested interests have plenty of opportunities to state their case.

Panorama has always been about investigative journalism, which challenges the status quo aka whichever government is in power.

The BBC has always used the argument that individual programmes don't need to be balanced, although their total output should be. That's how it's got away with some blatant right wing bias over the last few years.

It's good to have real journalism which doesn't just toady to those in power. It's been the catalyst for healthy debate, which is what a democracy, which allegedly promotes free speech, needs. The BBC must never become the government's PR machine.

We’ll never know will we? nothing is ever so black and white. There would be different aspects to be brought out, people who had different experiences could have been sought, they do exist but were not included.

What would a 'balanced view' have done, Glorybee?

It wouldn't have made any difference to the facts.

I agree, we do need to be able to watch programs like these, with the confidence they present or try to present a balanced view. We’ll still come to our own conclusions but via a more diverse set of views!

I'm not disputing that Glorybee. The programme made a point and so have you - and others. That's how it should be. What I'm disputing is the argument by some that the programmes shouldn't have been aired.

Don't you ever read the thread before hitting the keyboard, Ug?

We went through all of this yesterday.
It really doesn't matter what the political affiliations of participants were.

What matters is IS IT TRUE?

The answer to which appears to be YES

It’s in the news this morning that the 5 medics who ‘bravely’ spoke out were all Labour activists!

They perhaps had their own agenda to pursue?
?

Growstuff - I came across the article yesterday and posted it as it was relevant to the heading of this thread. As you said in your post yesterday ‘Freedom to express different views is the bedrock of democracy’, it was to provide another angle on how the program was perceived.
No one has ever denied that there have been problems, and as for people who are not left wing afraid to speak up, yes, I expect some of them are, in every walk of life.

But it doesnt take any responsibility or blame away from the government to look at the WHOLE picture

You are proving my point beautifully

A proper investigation would show as with almost all system failures, a swiss cheese effect! Gaps at every level. Not angels on one side and deamons on t'other.

Who are the people who first made the claim that PPE was being misused or wasted (or, as claimed above, stolen)? Presumably these are people sitting in offices determining how best to respond to the very real concern and anger from health care professionals (or HCPs as notanan2 prefers to call them) and from the general public.

I think I prefer to listen to the people who are actually doing the job of looking after people, rather than anonymous people whose task may well be to try and find an angle to discredit health care workers so as to distract from the government's poor lack of timely and effective planning.

You cant adequately fill a leaky bucket.

When the government said that ensuring minimum waste and correct use had to be part of any plan to make sure PPE was wherever it was needed, they wereny wrong. But were accused of blaming the NHS for the whole situation which was never the point!

Didnt say there is no problem. Anywhere.

But with problems like this there are issues at every stage

People are determined to hear "the government is flawless" (which nobody says) if anyone suggests that there were issues elsewhere also

If there really is no problem, how come politicians like Raab go out of their way to explain why there is a problem, but one they're trying to do something about. Something not quite right there!

Glorybee Are you implying that people who aren't left wing are too cowardly/uncaring to speak up?

It doesn't matter if even 90% of staff have adequate PPE, if the remaining 10% don't. They all matter not just the ones who are alright. (Sounds a bit like some people's attitude in general, to be honest.)

What is an HCP?

The fact that some hospitals have adequate PPE does not in any way negate the fact that some hospitals don't have adequate PPE.

When I asked about rebuttals I was thinking of rebuttals from the hospitals in which the participants in the programme actually worked. The interviewees weren't anonymous; their colleagues will know them and could well call them out on it if they were lying.

Starmer today, in PMQs, quoted the Royal College of Physicians concerns about PPE. Is the RCP a hotbed of leftie activists? Or can it be trusted to know what it's talking about?

I haven't seen any rebuttals of what they claimed; have you?

My local hospital has made two statements asking not to recieve donated PPE etc after it was shared on social media that they were asking for it. People chose to either ignore or disbelieve

Hospital staff have even been abused for turning it away on site.

Ive seen comments on pieces by hospital staff who said they appreciate donations but they have enough which pretty much amount to claims that they said so with a gun at their heads.

I do not doubt that some areas have run out or run into logistical issues or struggled to keep supplies up due to the global issues etc, especiallybthe hard hit areas!. But I imagine its more of a patchwork with some places low and others not than the media would like to portray. As thats not the story people want!

Just as there have been some very hard hit regions, there are also regions that are less so. Its not been a "warzone" everywhere. Few if any staff have been working around the clock. Maybe a handful of specialists in particularly hard hit areas, but as an exception not a rule