Treatment of prisoners during lockdown

One of the things my job has taught me is that everyone has their story and often you have no idea what that is. Every human being was once someone’s chubby little toddler with the world in front of them.
I have been in many prisons and they are definitely not ‘soft’. On the contrary they are utterly terrifying places. Most of the young men In them are scared and lonely, themselves childhood victims of domestic violence and abuse. Of course this does not excuse their crimes but it does help to explain them.
Having compassion for prisoners does not make me any less compassionate for their victims but I would rather attempt to make the world a better place by trying to find out and eradicate the causes of criminal behaviour rather than just locking them away and forgetting about rehabilitation.

My parents bought me up to to ‘ judge not, lest ye be judged’. We have all done things that are wrong and there but for the grace of God go I.

* Justwokeup*

" I have to say my extremely elderly relative in a care home is being treated in much the same way, albeit by sympathetic and kind staff, but is spending all day every day in isolation in their room ".................

I've worked in care homes, and I feel sure that prisoners get better meals than elderly people in care homes too

Well done Luckygirl for raising a difficult subject. We too, like many others, have been burgled and just felt an overriding sense of sadness for the young man who was found guilty. He was on his way to a life of crime, most likely, and, after the initial shock and upset, we claimed from home insurance and got on with life. I'm not trying to trivialise burglary at all, but the current situation is being accepted without any imagination in institutions. I have to say my extremely elderly relative in a care home is being treated in much the same way, albeit by sympathetic and kind staff, but is spending all day every day in isolation in their room because part of the home has been affected by Covid 19, and no doubt thinks family has deserted them. Why can't there be an appointment system where a family member can sit with them in the garden? In prison, small groups could occupy the usual social spaces in rota. You are right Luckygirl until we try to ensure that every person has value, and treat all our citizens with some compassion, then society is failing.

It's nonsense to say that wanting a more effective criminal justice system means we don't care about victims.

Our towns Sure Start centre closed this week because of lack of funding. It used to be funded by the local authority but austerity put paid to that, so it became a charity. Lockdown is ensuring many charities go under. The reference to Sure Start is because it was one of the initiatives of the Blair government. It was research based. Putting money into supporting children in their early years saves a fortune later in their lives. Less crime, less substance misuse, less violence. Look to the other Northern European countries who invest in their children and families.

Well said Luckygirl I agree.

If you want to see less crime, then look at what works and what does not work.

I speak as a victim of crime, a member of a jury and a former part-time prison teacher.

We should not be pigeon-holed into any of these categories. What is best for prisoners might well be best for the victims of crime and for the rest of society.

Another hard hearted person here. We were burgled many years ago. thousands of pounds worth of loss and damage, including my son's brand new bicycle which he had as a birthday present only weeks earlier. It was inside the house, not in a shed.
The same son now has his own home and is a keen biker, both mountain and road bikes as is his wife. They had a break in not long after moving into their home and thousands of pounds worth of bikes stolen.
My sympathy is for the law abiding people who work hard to earn the money to buy the things they want. Not with the criminals.

There is no conflict between having sympathy for victims and wanting to see reform of the public services that might be able to help those whose backgrounds lead them to crime.

Hopefully the one will lead to a reduction in the number of victims - something that benefits us all.

I worked in prison before I had to retire, granted not with murderers or paedophiles ( though there were many in the prison), and find it sad that the myth of the ipads, DVD players , mobile phones etc, is perpetuated, usually by people with no knowledge of the prison system. It most certainly is anything but a ‘ holiday camp’, as is often quoted. Of course crimes like burglary can have a devastating effect on victims, especially older people, but surely it would be better to stop the crimes being committed in the first place? I also think it’s sad that mental health issues are seen as an ‘ excuse’, when some time spent with prisoners would demonstrate otherwise. I don’t know what the answer is, but certainly don’t think inhumane treatment of offenders is the answer.

Criminals broke into my parent's home while they were at home, it left them so afraid it ruined their last years.
We have an extended family member who is a prison warder and it is not exactly a bed of roses.
Sympathy for hardened criminals is thin on the ground here.

Reading your post Lucky girl it does seem that it's not all black and white for all prisoners. In fact it sounds very sad for your relative although understandably lock down has had a greater impact on prisoners because of reduced staffing and no classes...etc
But surely the mental faculties are filled with the disturbed mentally ill prisoners and again is this a place you want to see your relative going? I hope he gets the chance of rebilatation that he needs , it sounds like he has family support.

I wrote a long post about this and then lost it, which is probably just as well as I was quite annoyed by some of the opinions expressed here.

For a start, prisons aren't just full of rapists and murderers. I have a good friend who spent a big chunk of his life in prison, due to drug addiction. All small sentences but they added up to a lot. His crimes were always possession or shoplifting, to feed himself or his addiction. He managed to go through heroin withdrawal through sheer strength of will, plus support from, ironically, some other junkies. Nowadays, he doesn't even touch alcohol or cigarettes. He makes no excuses for his crimes but I doubt he would have seen the inside of a prison if he hadn't been an addict.

Secondly, my DD and SiL work with the homeless. They say that nearly every rough sleeper they encounter has substance abuse/mental health issues, and most have been in prison at some point. DD and SiL try to get help for them but often see them sliding back into addiction or mental distress, or both, due to lack of ongoing support. Then they start re-offending and they are back inside. It's a revolving door.

If conditions have worsened in the prisons, this is only going to inflame the situation. People already tend to come out worse than they went in. It can't help society for prisoners' mental health to deteriorate further. It's usually bad enough already.

Rehabilitating prisoners doesn't mean forgetting the victims. The goal is to reduce the number of future victims. I am not blaming prison officers either. My DD works in co-operation with the local prison, trying to reduce the number of ex-cons ending up on the streets, and says the officers are struggling with underfunding and overcrowded conditions.

This country has a massive drug problem and the methods we are using to tackle it aren't working. I am not saying that everyone in prison is there because of substance abuse, but a lot of them are. It's no good demonising addicts - their lives are messed-up and they are doing what they can to survive. Until we find a better way of dealing with the problem - which means more funding, and maybe treating addicts as patients rather than criminals - our prisons will be full of them. Then there are the mentally ill. Our mental health services have been cut and cut, and the help that's needed just isn't there. More candidates for a cell. Isolation because of the virus must just be adding to the stress.

Another long post. Sorry!

I agree this situation is so tragic for all concerned. I think it's despicable that all governments over recent years have almost wiped out mental health services. I read recently thar over 30 percent of boys in young offenders institutions have ADHD which is treatable for the majority of cases. Sadly in some areas of the uk, the waiting list for treatment can be up to two years. Seems unfair!

My sympathies are with the victims of crime.

I do have people that have suffered. The lady that I have already mentioned.
An elderly couple in the next street to me, both in their eighties had their bungalow burgled three times.
Another elderly couple in another street next to me, when they were alive had a burglar in their bedroom while they were asleep. the lady thought her husband had got out of bed to go to the toilet. she put her arm out and actually touched the burglar. All of these couples I knew since I was little.
Another case which I can't go into. One of my best friends since childhood had one of her sons murdered. she and her family are like family to us.
Her son. 23 at the time got shot and his body burned in the back of a car. He was with another whose body has never been found. This happened in 1991. His mother, my friend shortly after had an heart attack. her kindney's failed and was on dialysis for four years and bedridden for a few years and died at the age of 64. She never got over it.
Her murdered son, was the grandson of my next door neighbours and best friend of my daughter right from starting school. He practically lived up my house.
The murdered got a life sentence of 16 years. An insult.
The only sympathy I have is for the victims.
I believe that many in prison will never be rehabilitated no matter what, because they don't want to be.

Regarding your last paragraph JaneRN prison is not a pleasant experience and the level of recidivism would suggest this theory is not working.

Can I just point out that this is not a binary issue? Because I think that the prison system is unfit for purpose, fails those who are illiterate/have mental health problems or many such factors which caused them to end up on the slippery slope which led them to being in prison, this does not mean that I do not have sympathy for victims, and it is unfair to suggest otherwise. Of course I think that many crimes are appalling, of course I think that some people's crimes are so atrocious that the only path is to protect society from the risk of them committing further atrocities, this goes without saying. But, there is little doubt that, in the majority of cases, prison does not work, either in remedial, rehabilitation sense or in the protection of the public sense. Those of you who are of the 'lock 'em up and throw away the key' school of thought are fortunate that you do not have anyone who has suffered as this young man has, and I am saddened that after years, decades of hard punishment rhetoric we still have not learned anything. I expect a fair few of you would like to see capital punishment re-introduced as well. Thank you again luckygirl for being brave enough to start what has become a contentious thread.

Well said JaneRn.
My motto is, if you can't do the time then don't do the crime.
What about the mental effect crime has on the victims?
I know a lady who lived just up the road from me who was burgled while she was out. It left her so traumatised that she had to move house.
How many times have prisoners been let out only to commit rape, murder again all because the system has been too soft.
The excuse that they've had a poor childhood. So have plenty more but they haven't turned to crime.
It maddens me more that it's often the victim that ends up in court and prison because they've protected themselves or their property. the law tends to be on the side of the offender.
The only thing that I agree with is offenders being able to learn a trade while inside.
Where there's a life sentence given, life should mean life not 16 years.
No sympathy from me for murderers, rapists. paedophiles.
Some will never change.

Dear Licky girl I am so sorry for your relative. It may help for people who contribute to this thread to be fully aware of the awful number of problems he was born with. According to the NHS site:

Symptoms of foetal alcohol syndrome
Symptoms include:

a head that's smaller than average
poor growth – they may be smaller than average at birth, grow slowly as they get older, and be shorter than average as an adult
distinctive facial features – such as small eyes, a thin upper lip, and a smooth area between the nose and upper lip, though these may become less noticeable with age
movement and balance problems
learning difficulties – such as problems with thinking, speech, social skills, timekeeping, maths or memory
issues with attention, concentration or hyperactivity
problems with the liver, kidneys, heart or other organs
hearing and vision problems
These problems are permanent, though early treatment and support can help limit their impact on an affected child's life.

Sadly it is very difficult to lead an ordinary life with a non typical brain, poor intelligence and being small in stature.

I am so sorry that whilst in prison he is getting no help to work towards a viable future in the ordinary community.

I am becoming increasingly suspicious about the mental health problems excuse which seems to be the current way to explain away any extreme behaviour, . Perhaps it would be more accurate to accept that every prisoner is a volunteer and to try to excuse them by citing mental health problems is insulting to all those people who struggle with even worse problems but not do commit crimes, bearing in mind that there is no such thing as a victimless crime.

My feeling is that perhaps if prison is sufficiently unpleasant it may deter inmates from future offending, and if not at least the rest of the public are being protected while they are inside.

There are a number of reasons to imprison an offender - punishment, deterrence, reparation, rehabilitation and the protection of the public.

In my opinion the only good reason is the last one - protection of the public. All of the other aims can be better achieved by other means.

Those who are imprisoned are far more likely to re-offend than those given community sentences. We should be far more imaginative in our penal policy. For instance, how about locking up football hooligans from Friday evening till Sunday evening over a series of weekends? They could the occupy cells of inmates nearing release who are allowed to go home for the weekend. The football hooligans would not lose their jobs and hence descend into a worse cycle of offending.

Humane treatment of prisoners is indeed a mark of a civilised society. Those who are treated well are less likely to re-offend and more likely to become decent members of society. It is time for a rethink.

The UK has more prisoners than any EU country and yet the right wing still clamour for more prisons to be built. Prisons are not easy places at the best of times, either for the inmates or the staff, but the additional dangers in this pandemic are stark.

Quizqueen, I can only be relieved you aren’t running our criminal justice system. Not only does that post confirm you have no understanding of crime or it’s causes, it confirms you lack empathy.
Prisons run with relatively little violence because staff and the majority of prisoners ensure that is the case.

In my opinion, prisoners should be in solitary confinement for the whole of their sentence with very little access to any media but plenty of time to think about why they are there and whether they never want to return. My sympathies are only with the victims of crime. I'm fed up with people making excuses for criminals.

Indeed Heather.

Sorry to hear this about your relative, and it’s not the right way to look after vulnerable people.
Can I just add from a personal point of view, we need to keep our prison staff safe as well