Second wave sweeping Europe?

growstuff ... what do you think of *Ashcombes graph?

I've spent some time in China and its not just the authoritarian Government that ensures compliance, its a completely different mindset.

You only have to read posts on Gransnet to see that most people value individual needs and rights over those of society as a whole. Posters are usually advised to put themselves and family first and to do what is right for them.

In China most people value the community, if not the state, above all and would place the individual need below that of the wider community.

We enjoy our freedoms and we emphasise the individual, encouraging our children to feel special.

Our limited control in situations like this is the price we pay.

sharon103

Good post MawB2

My brother- in-law used to work in China.
He said the people of China do as they're told and wouldn't dare do any other.
There have been whistle blowers who have been found shot or mysteriously disappeared.
I believe there has been a cover up.

I read today that there has been a large anti-lockdown demonstration in London, police hurt and arrests been made. While this keeps happening and people flouting the rules, we have no chance of beating this virus at all.
Boris can't be blamed for ignorant people.

Maybe some of them should be forced to attend a super spreader event. Can you imagine the outcry?

EllanVannin

Many will have died from other illnesses/ailments as happens daily around the world but we never hear of. The figures are still sketchy.

The leading causes of death in the UK are dementia, heart disease, strokes and cancer. Deaths from infectious diseases are rare. It's different in third world countries, which is why they face different challenges.

However, in the UK, being in contact with an infected person won't make you more liable to death from one of the leading forms of death. The causes of those may be preventable, but involve more long-term lifestyle changes, which are a whole different issue.

Good post MawB2

My brother- in-law used to work in China.
He said the people of China do as they're told and wouldn't dare do any other.
There have been whistle blowers who have been found shot or mysteriously disappeared.
I believe there has been a cover up.

I read today that there has been a large anti-lockdown demonstration in London, police hurt and arrests been made. While this keeps happening and people flouting the rules, we have no chance of beating this virus at all.
Boris can't be blamed for ignorant people.

GagaJo

ALL of my Brit (and American) friends in China are living normal lives now. Dinners out. Socialising. Out to bars at night. Shopping.

Lock down HARD. Trace all contacts of anyone who tests positive. It works.

A friend went on holiday in another city in China for 2 weeks just after the pandemic had eased. When she returned, mandatory Covid test. 2 weeks quarantine in her home (the police checked she was there a couple of times). 2nd mandatory Covid test at the end of the 2 weeks quarantine.

Too many people in the UK whinge about hard lockdowns Gagajo and do their own thing.

I wish people would stop looking at conspiracy theories and look at evidence and - yes- use their common sense.

I don't think looking at China serves much purpose. The country has a very different demographic profile and population density. Crucially, the state has a different role and people have to do as they're told.

The country most similar to the UK is Germany in many ways. Germany managed to keep cases and deaths lower than the UK. Even now, the huge increase in Germany hasn't reached the numbers of the UK and I think our government should be asking itself why and what we can learn.

Test and trace can't work unless it's efficient (which it isn't in the UK) and numbers are still controllable (which in many areas of the UK they're not). Low numbers in some areas could still be controlled.

The only alternative is to stop transmission by safe distancing and mask wearing, but too many people haven't been following the rules, which is why areas are experiencing lockdowns, which need to be enforced.

Unless somebody can come up with something different ...

ALL of my Brit (and American) friends in China are living normal lives now. Dinners out. Socialising. Out to bars at night. Shopping.

Lock down HARD. Trace all contacts of anyone who tests positive. It works.

A friend went on holiday in another city in China for 2 weeks just after the pandemic had eased. When she returned, mandatory Covid test. 2 weeks quarantine in her home (the police checked she was there a couple of times). 2nd mandatory Covid test at the end of the 2 weeks quarantine.

Many will have died from other illnesses/ailments as happens daily around the world but we never hear of. The figures are still sketchy.

The latest evidence suggests that smoking increases the risk of death in hospitalised Covid- 19 patients:

"Conclusions
At the time of this review, the available evidence suggests that smoking is associated with increased severity of disease and death in hospitalized COVID-19 patients. Although likely related to severity, there is no evidence to quantify the risk to smokers of hospitalization with COVID-19 or of infection by SARS-CoV-2 was found in the peer-reviewed literature. Population-based studies are needed to address these questions.

Related WHO Recommendations
Given the well-established harms associated with tobacco use and second-hand smoke exposure;2 WHO recommends that tobacco users stop using tobacco. Proven interventions to help users quit include toll-free quit lines, mobile text-messaging cessation programmes, nicotine replacement therapies and other approved medications.

30 June 2020"

www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/smoking-and-covid-19

kircubbin2000

Is China telling the truth?

He isn't Chinese. He's a Northumbrian British bloke from my old UK school.

But sure. Conspiracy theory. They've even paid foreigners to lie for them.

China does not have huge protest rallies with tens of thousands of people attending, shouting about anti-vax and 5G, or Extinction Rebellion rallies, or raves ..... at least I assume not. Perhaps GagaJo can confirm.

All these large groups of people mingling in the free world have obviously not helped.

Namsnanny, it appears that nicotine attaches itself to cells which the virus aims for and blocks the virus from attaching, or some such thing.
A high percentage of doctors in China smoke, the highest in the world.

Ironically, BAT ( British American Tobacco ) stated that in April this year they can produce a vaccine based on a coronavirus antigen growing vaccine in tobacco plants. They also stated that they could manufacture up to 3 million vaccines a month----if it gets support from the Government.
This was updated in July of this year.

Most medications etc are plant based.

Even NZ has a little surge of 40 Russian boat workers who all tested positive and a dock worker who went aboard then off to the pub now all quarantined in a special hotel but whose to know if anyone was infected in the pub
I m afraid all the lockdowns are not going to work as once we put our heads above the parapet it ll catch up with us again until it mutates wears itself out or we get a vaccine ( which I don’t think will be any time soon)

I tend to agree fennel and some countries will never report the true figures

petra

Why was there an increase of 67 % in traffic outside Wuhan hospitals in October 2019 from the exact time period the year before. And a massive surge in internet searches ( in china) looking at covid symptoms?
The traffic info is from satellite images. The internet data was gathered by Harvard university.

Exactly!! The Chinese are not famous for their honesty and transparency and the WHO will only be told what the Chinese Government want them to know. BBC showed a clip a few months ago of their reporter and camera team in Wuhan, speaking to local people. One lady, a nurse, was giving them an interview when she was hurried away by officials. The BBC team had their car surrounded by Police and Government staff and could not continue their report. Why the secrecy? China has no right to try to conceal the origins of this virus and how it has been allowed to cause so many deaths and so much destruction in our world.

I think it can be misleading to compare rates in different countries.
eg Finland has a small population and they're widely scattered.
China, India etc vast areas where it will be imposible to detect all cases, causes of death.
Some countries more medically sophisticated than others.
Within Europe comparisons maybe more meaningful.

Just think how many carriers there are. No symptoms themselves, just a carrier of the virus. It does happen and the only thing that will block it out is a vaccine.

multi

I dont disagree with your post MayBee70 I just dont think it's that simple.
For example (and shoot me down if I'm out of touch with new information) but early on it was mooted that smoking actually rendered protection against Covid. Is this still the case? If so China has the highest % of smokers, could that help their figures?
It needs a multiethnic disciplined approach. There is no magic bullet.

It was the first wave that never went away----not a second wave.
Pandemics hang around for a good two years as long as there's continual movement of individuals. It stands to reason. Nobody has stayed in one designated " space " for any length of time so it's what we expect, isn't it ?

Why was there an increase of 67 % in traffic outside Wuhan hospitals in October 2019 from the exact time period the year before. And a massive surge in internet searches ( in china) looking at covid symptoms?
The traffic info is from satellite images. The internet data was gathered by Harvard university.

Namsnanny

If I've understood it correctly, people are infectious before they suffer from any signs of C19. How can we expect test and trace to cope in that case?
Taiwan and Japan have test and trace which seemed to work slightly better than in europe but they were stopping flights from China as far back as Dec (Tiawan). They didn't trust the Chinese info so made their own decisions based on past experiences.
Europe and WHO were to slow now it seems there is no way to catch up.

If everyone wears a mask (which is what happens in many eastern countries) it reduces the spread of the virus even before people show symptoms or are asymptomatic. Also Eastern countries understood the need for ventilation: something that has only just been mentioned here. Also their diet is healthier than ours and fewer people are overweight.

The comment on Chinese data was to Gagajo

Good article Maw. Thanks.
In one way it’s reassuring that we’re all in the same boat and our country isn’t doing better or worse than elsewhere BUT very depressing that nobody seems able to get it under control no matter which way we go.
Not sure I’m confident of Chinese data though.
I’m in full agreement with what JenniferEccles said.

Me repeating myself but hopefully on the right post now, if the virus is sweeping across Europe why are people allowed to travel? It makes no sense whatsoever and we are (most of us) abiding by the rules it is totally ridiculous.