Stop moaning and thank your lucky stars!

Polly Dolly. Thankyou for your post and I'm sorry to hear about your colleagues.
I think Christmas can be an emotionally difficult time for many at the best of times. This year so many people are suffering for so many reasons.
I think a lot of people will be sensible,or as sensible as is possible. I must admit I do feel a sense of despair when people assume because the government allow it it's safe to do so. I think the government realised people would do what they want anyway so this made them look both generous and in control.
It's a mess. A worldwide mess. I sympathise with businesses affected by being in a higher tier . What are the options though? People carry on as normal regardless of consequences.? We seem to have found ourselves in a position where both health and the economy a disaster.
Notinthemanual and lily pops please think carefully.
Tests are not foolproof. Yes,they only show a snapshot of time. My daughter works in a care home and is tested weekly. The test is on a monday and results are usually Wednesday. It's a slight reassurance but there is always the possibility she could have contracted the virus between the test and results. We have continued to socially distance.
I suppose the only way you could have any certainty would be one of the rapid 10minute tests but I'm not sure you can get those privately.
All you can do is your own risk assessment of where people have been and who mix with.
I think a few things this week have made me wary.
I think there is a lot of emphasis on aerosol spread but surface contamination still not clear.
In the Guardian today is an article about CQC inspectors moving between care homes that had covid. That in itself must enrage people for many reasons.
The justification, other than the need to inspect, was that inspectors had full access to appropriate PPE and maintained social distancing. Whenever I have seen inspectors this is certainly true, they are very discreet even before Covid. Despite this inspectors have tested positive for Covid. Of course behind every story there are many questions . Of course they may have picked up the infection elsewhere. On the whole they are intelligent people who would have been well informed about risk to selves and others and how to prevent it. I do know that wherever possible items going into care homes are isolated for 72hrs before residents use. Staff also dont wear outdoor clothes in work.
In a private setting if you are unsure about infection status its interesting to think back to guidelines over garden meetings in summer,bring own food,cutlery etc. If need to go indoors keep to minimum,clean after using bathroom etc.
The second incident that really unnerved me was a brief clip on local news about local hospital. A man who looked to be in his 60s was in intensive care. He had an oxygen mask on but said he was feeling better than he had. He was a high risk individual and had barely left the house since March. His wife had broken her leg so he had to go to the shops. It was his first and only time and he emphasised that. Again there are many questions but it unnerved me.
I dont want to scare anyone, although I'm sure people will do as they choose any way. Is it really worth it? I would say unless you had very genuine concerns about a person's wellbeing, especially their mental health, probably not.
For those that have pretty much kept themselves to themselves I also wonder if we could be more vulnerable to other infections?
It's so hard. It's cold and dark and meeting outdoors can be an uncomfortable experience. Christmas can be an emotional time anyway,including emotional blackmail and diva type behaviour. Please think very carefully about the implications of your behaviour for yourself and others.

The risk of dying from C19 in the under 60’s is very small, so I can totally understand why younger people are fed up with it all.
These are the people with the most to lose in terms of jobs & future prospects.
Older people, particularly if they have underlying health conditions, should stay at home, not mixing with anyone, until most of us have been vaccinated.
Simple as that in my opinion.

SueSocks I empathise. I'm in a very similar position. I think summer was a very difficult time as it seemed to go from lockdown to a free for all. I remained cautious and glad I did. I enjoyed socially distanced visits outside and braved a hair cut! Genuine friends will understand. Like many people my friends vary in how relaxed they are but we all respect boundaries.

Kandinsky

The risk of dying from C19 in the under 60’s is very small, so I can totally understand why younger people are fed up with it all.
These are the people with the most to lose in terms of jobs & future prospects.
Older people, particularly if they have underlying health conditions, should stay at home, not mixing with anyone, until most of us have been vaccinated.
Simple as that in my opinion.

Kandinsky How about the risk of long term effects in younger people ?
If over 60s become ill or die this will leave childcare issues for many. Many over 60s are still working, what should they do ?
(I was certainly still teaching until 66.)

Growstuff , Thankyou, I am in turmoil here thinking that we shouldn’t go ,, my GD,s. Will have broken up for school a good 10 days before so any symptoms they may have got will have shown up by then , that’s one factor , my DD,s work from home anyway. As does my SIL , They haven’t mixed with any families since March at the start and they have always had our welfare at heart,
Taking all that into consideration , I am feeling it’s probably the safest place we could go , We are spending Cmas Day on our own ,
We have said if we go , no hugs, and stay 2metres apart , but is that feasible ? Oh what to do. Thankyou all for your advice and input. Greatly appreciated

Dorsetcupcake. Thankyou. For writing such a well thought piece, I saw that man being interviewed who said he had to go to the shops and it really frightened to think that happened and he ended up on oxygen. How easy it is to get infected ,,
A big part of me says don’t go ,, a smaller part of me says. I know my family have been careful. And only want the best for myself and DH , so it will be ok to visit on Boxing Day for a few hours

Lily pops it is such a dilemma and I totally sympathise.
One source of information I thoroughly reccomend is Independent Sage. I know early on in the pandemic some were disparaging and commented if they were that good why weren't they in SAGE? The answer being some were but didnt agree with government handling of the situation. I've been listening to them throughout. They are calm and non sensational. If they dont know the answer they say so. I'm sorry I cant provide a link but you can find them on Twitter or Google.
I've just caught up with yesterdays broadcast where they discussed schools and Christmas gatherings.
An interesting comment was that the reasoning for the Christmas policy is a psychological theory that basically forbidden fruit is always more tempting. If a total lockdown was ordered people would break it just to confirm there own sense of autonomy. By allowing Christmas bubbles,which to be honest no scientists or medics including official SAGE seem to think is advisable, people are more likely to step back and think. The best advice seems to be just because you can shouldnt mean you should.!
The information on school safety and also how government has misrepresented statistics is also very worrying.
All you can do is your own risk assessment.
How are you vulnerable to the virus. Age? Underlying health conditions? BMI? Gender? Men are more susceptible than women. BAME?
Who are you mixing with? Probably the best scenario is you have all isolated for a fortnight.
Obviously the tier of your local area is important.
With regard to individual vulnerability it's often advisable to check Gov.UK for specific recommendations. To be honest it's got more vague as months go by and I havent looked at it since lockdown 2, probably because I continue to socially distance etc anyway.
That said it can be very grounding to see the core advice in black and white without all the bluster of government press conferences and the hysteria of media.
It certainly helped me during summer when a lot of people seemed to be acting as though the virus had disappeared but as someone who was vulnerable on several counts the advice was to remain cautious. For those who feel pressured into things they are not quite comfortable with it also provided a back up argument. My youngest daughter felt I should be doing a variety of things and to be fair to her her nagging was out of love. I remember saying to her that I would love to have a haircut but as I dont drive it was difficult as even then the government didnt recommend certain activities such as car sharing. It took the emotion out of the conversation. I felt I wasnt being awkward and my daughter could see the rationale behind my decision.
In August my eldest daughter and grandchilderen came down for a visit. All socially distanced in garden. As she works with vulnerable adults she too is very careful. I must admit sat in the garden at one point it crossed my mind that I was being maybe two cautious. On her return home she really felt quite unwell,as did my grandson. They both had covid tests which fortunately were negative. It was an eye opener for me,yes she just had a viral infection but sat in my garden she was as fit as a fiddle!
Everyone's circumstances are so different. I know my son in laws parents are in their mid 70s so vulnerable in terms of age but have no other underlying health conditions and are happy to form a Christmas bubble with my daughter and family at Christmas. I'm glad as if happens at least I will be able to have a distanced visit from daughter and family where we can say merry Christmas and lob pressies at each other.! Just in case main presents have been bought online and already been delivered to my daughters.
Im a 100%sure I would be asked to be in their xmas bubble. I would however politely thank them and decline. For me personally the risk factors are to high.
Instead I will make the most of the day including video calls. We are to near a vaccination to risk it all for a roast dinner followed by 14days of wondering. Not to mention that the NHS will potentially be in crisis.
It's only my opinion but I feel this government have handled the crisis badly both in terms of the economy and health. I think their is very little concern about the the wellbeing of the most vulnerable other than odd slogan. Since April they have been attempting a game or catch up that is either impossible or they lack the inclination or competence for.
It may be cynical and harsh but I can almost see them accepting of more deaths as a vaccine is around the corner. There are many things they could have put in place to have made the whole situation less disastrous and for whatever reason they havent.
The only person who can protect you is you. Is it worth it for a few brief hours,where to be perfectly honest there would probably be an underlying worry? Maybe it's best to make the most of a bad situation and focus on an alternative celebration in the Spring/Summer.

Dorsetcupcake
The story you mention if the man in ICU who had barely left the house and his wife with the broken leg could have been written about my husband and I.
I have been reluctant to mention it because it is so upsetting, and it worries me that people will think I'm scaremongering.

DH is in his 70s, is clinically extremely vulnerable and has been shielding.
I have terrible mobility problems so don't go out - I have hermit tendencies anyway.
DH walked the dog every day in quiet woods at the back of our house.
We saw my dad once, who was similarly 'careful'. That's it.

Somehow he caught Covid and developed pneumonia. He was in critical care for a week.

I have no idea how he caught it. The most likely explanation was that he caught it taking me to one of my hospital appointments. He is still very poorly. I know that we are in it for the long haul.

There is a lot that we just don't know about Covid.
To think that opening a few windows and having only 'short' visits will magically protect you is foolish.

I urge everyone to take this very seriously.
If my DH can catch it, anyone can.

It was sad reading this thread and so many heartfelt stories. My heart goes out to all of you.
I am tired of hearing the moaners on TV going on and on about not being able to have a big get together and parties etc.
We have to suck it up in an attempt to protect others and ourselves as much as possible. Why is that so hard?

I'm so sorry to hear about your husband Fannycornforth, I hope he continues to recover.
I think at the beginning the images that stayed in my mind were those of workers in full hazmat suits cleaning all available public areas,this felt more extreme than a simple virus.
The information on catching the virus from surfaces is varied. I suppose in many ways it's down to luck,or rather bad luck. Maybe all it takes is to be vulnerable or high risk and come into contact with the virus whether it be in the air or on a surface.
Probably some of the most important advice is washing your hands and not touching your face unless have washed hands.
My last shift at the care home I worked in was mentally exhausting. It was mid march and the virus was known about. Being vulnerable I was very aware and was extremely cautious in what I touched and how. When I got home the few things I had taken with me were wiped down,clothes straight in washing machine,I showered. I will be honest and admit I felt rather OTT. Within two weeks Covid was rampant in the home,one of the worst affected floors being the one I worked on.
I dont suppose I will ever know whether my actions prevented me becoming infected,I'm certainly high risk. Maybe I was just lucky in the way that a group of people can be exposed to a cold but not everyone gets it.
I understand what you mean by worrying about being accused of scaremongering but all you can do is what's best for you and your loved ones. As a regular reader of the forums on here and other sites I sometimes feel like commenting but dont. It feels as though those who listen understand but some will only believe what suits them. Such is life. Those that are most frustrating are those that seem in denial about the risks the virus can pose and are dismissive of those who are more cautious.

No shooting PollyDolly.
I've been amazed at so many posts on here, and on mumsnet, about people wanting to get together or being pressured by others to do so - and people moaning that others won't do as they'd like them to.

The change of rules doesn't mean a magic removal of risk.
Why do so many people seem to think it does?

Although I can fully understand a lot of the sentiment being expressed on here, I do feel it’s easy to lose a sense of perspective around the virus and the risks it poses.

In particular I don’t like the way ‘killer virus’ is spouted so often.
Yes obviously we all know that for some it is a killer but the fact remains that the majority of people who catch the virus, even those in their 80s recover.

Of course those who are in poor health already are particularly susceptible as well as the obese and some ethnic groups but does that justify the rest of us cowering in fear from it ?

I also accept that for some the recovery period is longer, so called long Covid,but that can also happen with other viral infections. These are the ones we hear about too aren’t they?
The many thousands who have made a full recovery aren’t newsworthy yet they make up the majority.

I also don’t like the habit of describing those who have mentioned scaremongering, as being covid deniers.

I may be wrong but I understand ‘denier’ to mean those who deny the existence of the virus, which must be a really tiny number of people.

I don’t want to catch this virus any more than anyone else but I am keeping a sense of perspective around the risks involved.

Well said! I am totally fed up with folks attitudes. Self self self all the moaning is unbearable. Just wish they would give others a thought who aren’t going to see a Christmas again. I’m grateful just to be here, warm, food in cupboard, and able to pay the bills.

JE. Thing is that those with underlying conditions might well have years and years of life if it weren’t fir this virus

Jennifereccles
Have you read my post upthread?

Well they might yes Lucca* or they could succumb to flu or pneumonia or any other viruses.

FannyCornforth yes I read your post. I am sorry to hear about your husband’s experience. It must have been a dreadful shock to you and it is bound to make you view the virus in a certain way, but with respect, yours is only one couples’ experience which doesn’t tell the whole story.

Equally I could tell you about two elderly (80s) neighbours of mine both of whom caught covid and completely recovered.

Neither example proves anything does it, except that my neighbours are in the majority.

It's such a lottery really. Careful sensible people can catch it and idiots that carry on as normal can be OK. Nobody knows for sure whether they will or won't catch it. Better safe than sorry (or as safe as its possible to be).
Quiet Christmas at home for us this year.

FannyCornforth

Jennifereccles
Have you read my post upthread?

Just to say that I was sorry to read your post and I wish you both well and a speedy recovery for your husband.

Excellent post Polly dolly I read so many ridiculous posts (mostly on Mumsnet rather than on here) from people complaining that their liberties are being infringed, that no-one can tell them who they can see, etc etc.
They speak as if the virus is an engineered political event, rather than acknowledging that it is a threat that trancends politics.
Some are simply thoughtless, but I would say that many people with these views are twenty and thirty year olds who have been brought up to expect every wish to be fulfilled, and all their whims to be catered to. It leaves them unable to react sensibly to a situation which demands some self control and consideration for others.

Thank you PollyDolly.I am increasingly exasperated by a relative of mine who moans all the time.Now she's furious that cafes have closed again because all she wants to do us to out for a coffee and get back to normal.This is despite both her and her DH testing positive after visits to a cafe that had an outbreak amongst staff,and her DH being very ill at home for 3 weeks with Covid and still not fully recovered.Then the other day she was annoyed that when she went to the supermarket, just for something to do ,it was ridiculously busy.I had to end the conversation rapidly. Especially as I have had Covid myself and our DD is an ICU nurse,I also have a friend whose lives revolves around the next holiday or meal out and has no hobbies at home and to hear her talk this is a massive inconvenience to her lifestyle.I am beginning to really cherish the stoic,cheerful friends who have had their bad days,as we all have,but have been amazing pandemic friends on the phone or Zoom and who have not been energy zappers.

Thank you whitewave
The kindness of strangers on here is a wonderful thing

Washerwoman I am priding myself on my stoicism.
The cheerfulness is very much a work in progress

I don’t really care if I’m alone at
Christmas, I worked every C for many many years. We always had a ‘ Non Christmas Day!’