Chris Whitty moves to head off GPs' rebellion over vaccine doses

I trust Chris Witty. I don't trust the government. If CW says this is the right thing to do, I believe him.

I wish we could hear more from Prof Van Tamm I think he is honest and sensible.

Yes, not enough information from trustworthy sources Soda. But I guess all reliable voices are silenced when it comes to the virus.

Scientists have their reputations to think of. I think we have to believe Chris Whitty who has always, in my opinion, been very cautious. I do agree that JVT is very believable. Perhaps they will get him on the next government briefing to confirm that this is a good decision.

And after putting off the 2nd dose, and using up all of that type of vaccine, maybe it'll turn out that a 2nd dose isn't considered necessary after all - as we flounder our way into 2021.

It's clearly a panic reaction to try to slow the increasing infections, which might even work, but it's absolutely based on government desperation, and nothing else.

""The decision to ask GPs, at such short notice, to rebook patients for three months hence, will also cause huge logistical problems for almost all vaccination sites and practices.

"For example, to make contact with even just two thousand elderly or vulnerable patients will take a team of five staff at a practice about a week, and that's simply untenable.""

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/delaying-second-covid-vaccine-dose-23244630

I agree, FarNorth.

I like Professor VT best - he’s a great communicator.

I’m just amazed that GP ‘s are to be paid a tenner (yes £10) for each vaccination they perform! The vaccine itself only cost £3,50 and when you think of all the research by the scientists to deliver it too.

Also volunteer vaccinators are to be paid £25 per day for their services. A retired nurse said she had volunteered - not expecting to be paid at all!

Asides from the lack of consent and pragmatics etc it is potentially a bad idea to have a virus jumping from person to person in a partially vaccinated population. Put it this way of you wanted to try and produce vaccine resistance that would be a good way to encourage it. If they’re right about 90% immunity they may be right, but they don’t actually know that yet. You can’t reliably measure efficacy until it has been administered for a a while.

I really wish they would include evolutionary biologists on JCVI.

If they’re right about 90% immunity they may be all right - typo

I think that what they say makes sense and gets more people vaccinated quickly.
The first dose is the important one( in terms of percentage)
Efficacy.

It introduces a selection pressure into a partially immunised population.

This is not necessarily sensible. It depends how much transmission is taking place - something that is not yet known. Partly why a number of people who work in viral evolution are standing back watching what happens in a somewhat horrified way.

If you want some idea of the issues of viral evolution in response to vaccination google Andrew Read’s work. I haven’t seen his take on this (have seen others who work in the field) but he writes widely about pathogen evolution & vaccination & a lot of his work is quite accessible.

They are also now talking about mixing and matching vaccinations which also may not he wise.

In any case the people waiting for their second dose have not consented to take part in a trial so ethically it stinks.

Urmstongran

I like Professor VT best - he’s a great communicator.

I’m just amazed that GP ‘s are to be paid a tenner (yes £10) for each vaccination they perform! The vaccine itself only cost £3,50 and when you think of all the research by the scientists to deliver it too.

Also volunteer vaccinators are to be paid £25 per day for their services. A retired nurse said she had volunteered - not expecting to be paid at all!

Why are you amazed at Gp surgeries being paid £10 per vaccine? Let's look at what's involved in setting up vaccination clinics. Bear in mind they are doing this ON TOP of everything else they are doing.
So, you need reception and admin to identify vulnerable patients, to book appointments, update medical records, manage waiting areas.
You need extra Docs, nurses and trained staff to draw up, administer and supervise the process of vaccination.
You need extra auxiliary staff to clean between each client.
You need extra PPE
That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure there's a lot of other tasks associated, especially paperwork of all kinds that are part of the service.
It's not as though this is a tenner being slipped into the GP's back pocket for every client jabbed.
I doubt it's even cost neutral when all is said and done.

In any case the people waiting for their second dose have not consented to take part in a trial so ethically it stinks.

Yes it does.

I’m sure fear of something like this is exactly why some people are not jumping to get in the queue.

It’s really so poorly planned out, that it couldn’t look worse if they tried.

lemongrove

I think that what they say makes sense and gets more people vaccinated quickly.
The first dose is the important one( in terms of percentage)
Efficacy.

What's the efficacy of a single dose? Where's the data?

Who claimed the first dose is the important one?

And it's the most vulnerable, along with care staff, who are the guinea pigs.

Pfizer have stated that it won’t work. It only gives 3 weeks immunity and rapidly reduces. The whole thing has been set up to give 2 injections.

This is back of a fag packet stuff.

Are they doing this anywhere else in the world?

How about our nearest neighbours? European countries, are they taking this risk?

This

“By denying people their second vaccine dose, the UK government has tricked them into taking a drug in an unlicensed, untested way. It risks the UK incubating a vaccine resistant mutation. All for the sake of optics. It is a new low. And that's really saying something.”

Scientists elsewhere are pretty agog WW. Make no mistake - this is turning the U.K. into one big experiment, not just on effectiveness of single doses but also on mixing doses & more technically on viral evolution & selection pressures (& that last is far more reckless than leaving people not properly covered, but I have no confidence they even understand why it is so risky).

If nothing else I can’t believe so little has been learned about public confidence in vaccination in the last 20 years. You just cannot have people consent to a clinical treatment then change it to an experiment.

The £10 won’t begin to cover changing all the appointments already booked either. GP’s were struggling with what they had been asked to do anyway - this will push them over the edge.

The New York Times has raised a different issue www.nytimes.com/2021/01/01/health/coronavirus-vaccines-britain.html

Which still (IMO) isn’t as much of a concern as the increased risk for development of vaccine resistance.

It sounds as if quite a few doctors are refusing to change anything and are ploughing ahead with 3 week gap, for those already vaccinated at least.

I still have a contract with a care home,although I'm not actively working for them at the moment. In December permission forms were sent out regarding the vaccine. I completed them but wasnt sure if I would take up the offer as it felt wrong as I wasnt actively working there.
Initially I was a little wary of the vaccine. I then felt it was safe but wondered if the governments roll out would be as effective as everything else they have done in this pandemic.
The current situation really worries me. Maybe they are vaccinating care homes/over 80s first as most at risk group. Surely with the current stress the NHS is under frontline medical workers should also be vaccinated?
If I really wanted to I could go to my care home as documentation for vaccine is being handed out. I'm following my gut instinct and waiting.
This governments love of positive soundbites then disappearing whilst it all goes pear shaped is genuinely worrying. All be ok by Spring! Spring 2022 if we are lucky.
They have shown precious little real concern for vulnerable groups since March. Most promises made to care homes have not been fulfilled.
I just dont trust them. If JVT doesnt appear its probably because he refuses to bend the truth or lie by omission.

Dorsetcupcake Frontline health workers are in the second group to be vaccinated, just after care home residents in staff. That makes absolute ethical and organisational sense to me because care home residents are still the group most likely to die. They are also the group most likely to be hospitalised and needing one-to-one care.

"JCVI advises that the first priorities for the COVID-19 vaccination programme should be the prevention of mortality and the maintenance of the health and social care systems. As the risk of mortality from COVID-19 increases with age, prioritisation is primarily based on age."

In reality some health workers have been vaccinated before care home residents as a result of the logistical problems in getting the vaccine to care home residents.

Thankyou Growstuff ?