Second vaccine dose timing

It's a doctor I know of who is very dubious about the 12-week gap after a first Pfizer vaccination, not an ill-informed follower of the company that manufactures the drug.

I am glad that so many people are happy with the decision to delay the second dose. I am not.

I might have had more confidence if the pandemic wasn't being handled by a government with a track record of messing things up. (I want to use a much stronger word but I am restraining myself.) Their decisions have resulted in the UK having the highest death rate per capita in the world.

Let's take it on the chin! No need to ban mass gatherings, off you go to the football and the races. Lock down? We won't do that... Well, better late than never. Close the schools? We certainly won't do that. Oh, turns out that kids do transmit the virus after all - who'd have thought? Close the borders? Test at airports? Maybe after we've let the virus run for a few months. What do you mean, Test, Test, Test? You're only the WHO, why should we do what you say? No, we don't need your app, we've got a world beating one of our own. Oh dear, seems that it doesn't work. Yes, of course it's okay to send hospital patients back into care homes without testing them first. No, we're happy to give jobs and contracts to people with absolutely no experience in these areas. What could possibly go wrong?

So forgive me if I don't have 100% confidence in our leaders and I pay some attention to the vaccine manufacturers, the BMJ, the preliminary information from the Israeli vaccine programme, and the fact that the rest of the world seems to disagree with the decision. They watched us with similar horror at the beginning of the virus, when the government was going for herd immunity instead of lock down, despite the advice of countries like Italy and France. One European newspaper nicknamed the UK "the control sample." The delay, before the government changed its strategy, cost thousands of lives.

Still, better luck next time, eh?

I would just like to get the first dose.
My area is the second worst in England for the rollout for over 80s, and we have just heard that the next group. aged late 70s has been delayed further.
At least DH , aged over 80, managed to get his a few days ago

Quote from the Times yesterday 'Doctors have written to ministers expressing severe concerns about the coronavirus vaccine schedule, warning that patients are at risk if they do not receive a timely second dose.'
The fact that there's this level of concern should cause some cause concern at least.

The WHO say The vaccine should be given 3 weeks apart.

1 dose primes the body to receive the second dose.

At least we are protecting the NHS.

There is still the possibility (scientific) that as the virus mutates, the vaccine will not cover new strains.

Just because it does not affect one person personally, does not mean it does not affect their parents, their family, friends, colleagues, etc.

If the larger gap results in giving time to the virus to become immune to the vax and mutate- it will affect all, no borders.

Sorry - I meant to say thank you for the kind words, everyone.

I'm not a medical scientist, and I'm not a doctor, but I do think its important to point out misinformation and exaggeration where I see it. Everybody is free to believe what they like, of course, but I'm just posting what I see.

Thank you Alegrias. I appreciate your frustrations but appreciate your scientific viewpoint even more.
Thank you for being a voice of informed reason in the midst of all the Chinese whispers.

Alegrias1

Thank you for all the common sense and back up references. I agree totally and have followed the progress of Covid-19 from the first report around December 2019. I have watched the changes in recommendation evolve and wish the Grans would remember how little evidence there was when the initial deisions were made.

The same problems are seen now: we cannot made educated decisions till AFTER the evidence (data) is collected. The delay makes sense to me on the evidence I have from the Oxford trial I am on, and the papers published & you referred to earlier.

sazz1 Your nurse friend seems to have odd timing from my experience but I hope she is feeling better soon. I haven't been unblinded yet!

agree calendergirl, take advice from the people who know, petition is not necessary

...keep us out of an ICU...

Cs783

What Alegrias1 says, every time. Her posts are free and wonderful education in clear evidenced thinking. We’re lucky she is putting in her time!

I agree. I'm 100% with Alegrias1 on this and am very grateful for some reasoned, factual input.

I for one never expected the vaccine (of whichever source) to be some sort of cure-all. It will simply keep us out of and ICU and relieve the pressure on the NHS.

In that respect, it works like the flu vaccine, surely.

This is a very straightforward matter and again this government is fudging the situation. The simple fact is that the Pfizer and Astra Zeneca jabs (not sure about Moderna) were approved on the basis of being given in two doses three weeks apart - that's the only evidence there is - it hasn't been approved for two doses further apart. So, as usual, the government has created a huge target (strains of testing and track and trace!) and the only way it can reach it is by this strategy. What must also be factored in is the sorry fact that the Pfizer manufacturing plant in Belgium is being closed for re-engineering so the supplies of vaccines will stop - no doubt about this - they will stop for around six weeks meaning that there won't be vaccines anyway to ensure people get their doses in the right timeframe. I have heard that there's a plan to mix and match vaccines - what utter nonsense - against there's been no trials of this approach, and neither vaccine has been approved on that basis. I look to the heavens in despair at the lack of brainpower possessed collectively by this government and those who still fail to see how completely cackhandedly they have managed the situation since half-term last February when returners from their ski-ing trips brought this back in their droves, and football matches and race meetings were allowed to go ahead.

Alegrias thank you for your posts. I don’t know enough about the vaccine to make a fully informed comment, so I won’t.

One of the best things on GN is the information and help you can get from posters who might have experience of, or expertise in what you’re asking about.

One if the funniest/most irritating things is how posters can argue forever about anything and everything with or without direct experience.
The advice about the vaccine (from my knowledge based on what I’ve read here, seen in the news, or been told by the friend of a friend of my sister’s next door neighbour who is a consultant married to an IC nurse . . . ) is that the advice will continue to change as tests and monitoring continue. I just hope I get a jab soon.

The decision to star with those most affected was a purely clinical one. Any other priority criteria would be political and the JCVI has quite deliberately said it wants nothing to do with political decisions - and nor should it.

What Alegrias1 says, every time. Her posts are free and wonderful education in clear evidenced thinking. We’re lucky she is putting in her time!

Jillybird

Yes, I'm with Gagajo on this too. Why would the scientists have said the second dose should be within 3 weeks if it could be any old time that's convenient? I won't feel any safer going out after I've had my first dose until I get my second.
Pfizer have issued a disclaimer saying they won't support any claims if their vaccine isn't delivered within the time-frame recommended. Why should they do that? To avoid expensive litigation and financial claims, that's why; so they must suspect that there will be some if the second dose isn't given as recommended, or they wouldn't have bothered with the disclaimer.
Personally, I might have chosen to do the vaccinations in a different order. I think they should have started with clinically vulnerable, then 50+ and moved up in age groups rather than moving down. I appreciate we older ones are most vulnerable, but most of us aren't going to work so can easily take time off at home. (Yes, I'm screaming bored and desperate to see my family, but I don't have to risk going to work and catching the virus - and I don't think there's many on here who do - the majority of us are retired, it would seem).

The reason the scientists said what they did and why the vaccine was licensed for a three week gap is because there was a three week gap in the trials.

They can't guarantee the efficacy after a 12 week gap because they just don't know.

Presumably, Pfizer could now conduct trials with a 12 week gap but that would obviously take at least 12 weeks and I guess the idea was to start getting people vaccinated as soon as possible.

The next vaccine which will probably be available sometime in Feb/ March is by Johnson & Johnson, and it is now in phase 3 trials. This will be a game changer because it is based on a one dose regimen. I am involved in the clinical trials at the moment and have had the jab. Here's hoping I got the real thing and not the dummy!

Sorry about the typos.

No-one even

jillybird Who would bother with two if one was enough?

I don't often resort to capitals but I'm goiing to now, and putr then oin bold for good measure. NO-OPE HAS SAID ONE DOSE OF VACCINE IS ENOUGH
Got it?

Haha this just made me laugh! The one misspelling identified by Gransnet's spell checker in my last post was .... 'Gransnet!' I was offered 'transnet', 'gannet;' or 'grassnet' !

Alegrias1 thank you for these reasoned and researched statements, and your continued patience and persistence! I think that the problem is that scientists and doctors are experts in their fields, but don't know absolutely everything. I would rather believe their educated opinions, though, than someone on Gransnet, Facebook or the DM.

Aaarrghhh!

static.skaip.org/img/emoticons/180x180/f6fcff/headbang.gif

Sorry, too much.....?